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AV's: GM now the leader, Tesla, Apple dead last

9.3K views 21 replies 10 participants last post by  Qinsp  
#1 ·
Navigant considers GM to be the driverless car leader due to both its software sophistication and its ability to mass produce the cars (and solid state LIDAR) at scale.

A new report from the consulting firm Navigant ranks the 19 major players in the emerging driverless car industry. Navigant analysts see GM and Waymo as the clear industry leaders, while Tesla is dead last, alongside Apple.

"The Autopilot system on current products has stagnated and, in many respects, regressed since it was first launched in late 2015," Navigant writes. "More than one year after launching V2, Autopilot still lacks some of the functionality of the original, and there are many anecdotal reports from owners of unpredictable behavior."

"In a May 2017 TED talk, Musk claimed the systems being built today would be Level 5 capable"—that is, suitable for full self-driving with just a software update—"by 2019," Navigant notes. "However, this is unlikely to ever be achievable."

"Current Tesla hardware lacks the ability to keep sensors clean and unobscured in poor weather as well as most of the redundant systems needed for fully automated driving," Navigant writes. It follows that with more shortcomings and roadblocks in front of Tesla.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/0...018/01/why-analysts-put-gm-and-waymo-far-ahead-of-tesla-in-driverless-car-race/

Seems like GM has come out of the AV saloon guns blazing and catapulted itself from nowhere to the leader in record time by spending some serious billions on Cruise Automation and the solid state LIDAR manufacturer Strobe. Coupled with its ability to engineer and mass produce cars, it enjoys a unique advantage over the others. And it's not letting grass grow under the tires.
 
#3 ·
With 44 corporations working on this, how does a GM - Tesla comparison matter? Because Musk opened his mouth?
It's also a GM Apple comparison, but no one really talks about Apple. But yes, Musk's Megaphone calls attention to Tesla and the perception (hype?) that has been created that Tesla is the AV leader, what with AutoPilot, the claims that camera's (no LIDAR) are all that is needed, etc.

GM's rise in self driving EV's at odds with the popular narrative that it is old school, doesn't "get it", is not innovating, etc., etc.

By the way, way to go, Marry Barra!

P.S, It just took Navigant a while to catch up with you, MisterDave :)
 
#4 ·
<takes a bow>..... :rolleyes: Really it's just that no one else is showing anything on the scale of GM efforts.

I think talking Waymo (which they did) would be more appropriate. Too bad they don't have a manufacturing partner. You'd think that would be a priority. I guess they're one of those seen as poised for a buyout. I don't think Tesla has the cash for this. Ford or FCA maybe, but each lags GM in every tech area. It's not like they have an EV platform to apply it to.

Maybe a "Who will buy Waymo" story would get clicks. GM might, but possibly only to bury it. With no real competition, I don't know why they'd waste the capital.
 
#5 ·
It's still reasonably early, and so early you can imagine a player going from worst to first. However, I suspect that would be someone like Toyota which seems to be in stealth mode.

Tesla underestimate the challenge of building a system like Mobileye's. That's why the current system, which is Tesla's, isn't as capable as the original, which was Mobileye's. Thinking you can achieve Level 5 autonomy with only cameras also seems to be wrong.
 
#7 ·
Apple has $100 billion it can spend. Maybe it buys Tesla, it's been thought of before. Can merging two last place finishers be a winning hand?
 
#9 ·
It's funny how GM and the companies they've bought and partnered with are being touted as "the best!" while Tesla with their in-house solution doesn't give a crap, and isn't showing their hand when it comes to self-driving cars.
 
#10 ·
#15 · (Edited)
GM Leads, Tesla & Apple Trail Deeply In Navigant Research Self-Driving Report

GM Leads, Tesla & Apple Trail Deeply In Navigant Research Self-Driving Report
By Steve Hanley on Jan 20, 2018 08:25 am

GM is ahead of everyone else in autonomous driving per above report that i found on CleanTechnica. Cannot seem to add link to take you to the article. Perhaps someone else can add the link

This article along with GM's announcement of plans to build a Bolt in 2019 without steering wheel and pedals has brought out more negative comments many people (the Tesla fanboys???) than acknowledgement of realizing a significant milestone or hope for success,

I quote one comment which says it all imho:
Lllurker • a day ago
"By the way I can’t think of anything that could possibly convert more skeptics into believers than GM actually producing a car with no steering wheel."

Wow!!!
 
#16 · (Edited)
Here's the link:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/2.../01/20/gm-leads-tesla-apple-trail-deeply-navigant-research-self-driving-report/

Yeah - as usual Tesla seems to have managed to implant a pretty strong message in people's heads about self driving, but I'm not convinced that the hardware in their cars is really going to be up to the task. That could hurt them in a few years as people realize how much better other manufacturers are doing.

Mind you, Tesla's big advantage is that they can at least give you some upgraded capability. Nobody else seems to have clued into what a huge marketing advantage that kind of after-market support is.
 
#17 ·
I think those who were paying attention realized the limits of Tesla's tech when the car hit the truck without slowing down. The reports of cars hitting trucks stopped at lights didn't get much press, but were an early warning.

The painfully obvious California AV Testing and Video 16 months ago, staff replacements, vendor replacements, and no further progress reports except AP2.5 has shown that Tesla isn't pumping the resources into AV that are needed.

Cadillac demonstrated 'AP1.00' equivalency in 2012. But can you imagine what would have happened to GM if they put it in play and it hit a truck? GM lost billions on a gas tank issue that was found to be no more dangerous than any other brand. And again with an ignition key issue that all cars have had since key ignitions were born.

GM can't do Kamikaze engineering. The car must return to base or there is no base to return to.

So far Tesla has not fallen under the same requirement, but they will.
 
#18 ·
Just posted this in another thread:
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/

It's not a surprise to me that GM is ahead of Tesla in AV. No different than in EVs either -- Money talks. GM has the ability to invest like almost no one else.

Someone mentioned Toyota as well. They also have the capital, and they likely have more incentive than anyone to create AVs. Think about the demographics of their current customer base. Most Toyotas are driven by people who just as soon not drive at all. AVs are the next logical step for 90% of Toyota customers.
 
#19 ·
When it comes down to how much capital you have to spend (and Tesla has less of it than GM, making all those profits selling ICE trucks and SUVs) and you decide to spend some of it on a charging infrastructure you have less to spend on autonomy. GM spends zero on charging infrastructure; that is someone elses problem (they are probably happy it was VW that got caught). I for one, care more about charging that I do about autonomy.
 
#22 ·
We have Volts. They charge while we sleep. GM figured out the remote charging problem a decade ago. Put enough battery in it and enough electric motor so most of your trips are EV. Put a small ICE in it so it can go anywhere, with 100 miles per minute remote refueling.
 
#20 ·
One thing people need to remember AV is NOT synonymous with EV...:)

An AV ICE is still a possibility...:)
 
#21 ·
True, but they tend to fit well together, especially recharging wirelessly if you want to reduce headcount. However, someone has to clean the cars, so perhaps after every or X number of trips the car returns to a station where it's plugged in and cleaned. If so, it could be filled with gas. However, EV's tend to have a far simpler maintenance schedule compared to gassers.

Other than inspections and tire rotations, my Bolt's schedule is to replace some fluids at 150k miles. Compare that to a gaz car.