[jeffhre]

I think these things will go in the same direction as high speed internet did in hotels, fast food, etc... Basically earlier adopters will pay for the convenience and in a couple of years everyone will make a big deal about it being free after initial capital cost have been recovered. Personally I don't think these things make much sense at places you're not likely to spend a couple hours at, at least at these prices. So I would place them in malls, sporting events, Costco/Sam's Club, WalMart, etc...

Or maybe until the costs shake out to a reasonable level, these are the only places that price would make sense. Get a charge, stay for 15 minutes, and pay a buck for the convenience. Stay any longer and you start feeling gouged. With commercial power rates so low though, I tend to think the places that are cheap, and that tempt you to stay longer and spend more in the store, will do better.

 

[Noel Park]

Marlow, changes in the law?

The good news is that there are companies that see a future need and are willing to invest capital now. I don't worry about the rate one company proposes because supply and demand will sort it out. Ala the wifi mentioned earlier, you could also cite the cell phone industry as well.

I agree. If no one uses them, I assume that the price will come down eventually.

Or maybe they will just be abandoned, as so many of the old EV1 era charging stations seem to have been here in CA. They still have the paddle plugs on them, so no one with a J1772 can use them. There are at least 20 at LAX, and hundreds more around the state if you believe the maps.

When things are slow at the shop we sometimes say "Today has been cancelled for lack of interest".

 

[voltage692]

That's my point. A failure for Walgreens will be a failure for this most recent electric car movement (yes, this is not the electric car's first rodeo, or second).

If you are the general public and you're willing to consider an electric car, you won't when you find out about these crazy chargers (Walgreens and the ones on the side of the long highways). These charges only serve to highlight the problem with electric cars.

Joe America is going to think: "Great, I buy an electric car, and now I have to pay 3-4 times as much as gasoline for electricity, and I have to either wait in Walgreens or on the side of a highway for potentially hours just to refill when I could have driven for 400 miles and filled up my gasoline car in 3 minutes."

We all know people remember the bad and not the good. Walgreen's will be on their mind when they decide not to get an electric car.

I agree. If no one uses them, I assume that the price will come down eventually.

Or maybe they will just be abandoned, as so many of the old EV1 era charging stations seem to have been here in CA. They still have the paddle plugs on them, so no one with a J1772 can use them. There are at least 20 at LAX, and hundreds more around the state if you believe the maps.

When things are slow at the shop we sometimes say "Today has been cancelled for lack of interest".

 

[Noel Park]

voltage692,

I think that, for the foreseeable future, the BEV will be a niche product for people who can fit it into their commutes by charging at home and hopefully at work. And who have a second car if they want to go outside the range of the BEV.

I see these public charging stations as basically irrelevant unless and until there are thousands of them in convenient locations so that people don't have to wait. I think that GM learned the lessons of the BEV very well from the EV1, hence the EREV/Volt.

I think that Joe America is smart enough to realize this and only buy a BEV if it will fit his lifestyle and save some $$ and/or help with all of the externalities of the iCE which we have discussed here so often.

Which is I guess a long winded way of agreeing with you. So much the better, LOL.

 

[Steverino]

The one and only time I used a charge station was in an overnight parking garage in Baltimore on the U of Md campus. The charge came free with the paid parking. I could have parked elsewhere, but I chose that garage because of the charge station. I think the use of charge stations in this way, just like the exterior outlets at Hampton Inn, provides a competitive advantage for businesses like these. All things being equal, I'll choose the business with a free (or at cost) charge option every time.

 

[voltage692]

I see these public charging stations as basically irrelevant unless and until there are thousands of them in convenient locations so that people don't have to wait.

The plug in cars are truly a game changer here. The problem with BEV is always chicken and egg. There won't be a lot of chargers until there are a lot of BEVs, and vice versa. The plug ins like the Volt will help encourage charging stations while not depending on them.

Hopefully merchants and businesses will take the approach of luring customers and employees by letting them plug in their EREV even though they don't *need* it.

Walgreens is doing the opposite of luring right now.

 

[DonC]

The problem with BEV is always chicken and egg. There won't be a lot of chargers until there are a lot of BEVs, and vice versa.

The empirical research suggests that Noel is right in asserting that public chargers will be irrelevant for BEVs and EREVs and most everything else. Based on research going back to 1990, UC Davis predicts that 80% of all public chargers slotted for installation in San Diego County will never be used. The big problem is they take too long. A Level II charger will get you 12 miles in an hour. Meh. The parking spot may be valuable but not the charging station.

Chargers at work are a different story because you end up parked there for hours at at time.

 

[voltage692]

Work and home is not the only place people park for hours, so I disagree.

Think city parks, movie theaters, town centers, etc....

Stop thinking Walgreens, Whole Foods, side of the highway...

The empirical research suggests that Noel is right in asserting that public chargers will be irrelevant for BEVs and EREVs and most everything else. Based on research going back to 1990, UC Davis predicts that 80% of all public chargers slotted for installation in San Diego County will never be used. The big problem is they take too long. A Level II charger will get you 12 miles in an hour. Meh. The parking spot may be valuable but not the charging station.

Chargers at work are a different story because you end up parked there for hours at at time.

 

[walterbays]

Work and home is not the only place people park for hours, so I disagree.

Think city parks, movie theaters, town centers, etc....

Stop thinking Walgreens, Whole Foods, side of the highway...

Very true. E.g., Macy's is supposed to be getting charging stations, so I'll park there when I go to the mall, walk in through Macy's, and quite likely pick up some items I hadn't planned on buying. Another thing retailers might do is offer free charging with some minimum purchase, which easy to do with a retailer "club" card tied to the charge station RFID card.

Someone on MyNissanLeaf.com pointed out that one advantage of overpriced charging stations is that you can be assured of finding it available when you need it, not occupied with gasoline cars nor with fully charged EV's. Then the extra "convenience" price could be worth it for a BEV driver. Indeed the existence of the overpriced guaranteed available charging stations make it much more attractive to use free and cheap, but unreliable, charging stations - because there is a "Plan B" in case all the charging stations are blocked.

But for a Volt driver, when the cost of electricity exceeds the cost of gasoline the free market works instantly. You can charge and shop at Walgreens if they offer a reasonable deal. Or you can drive past Walgreens, fill up at Arco, and shop at CVS instead.

 

[TeslaOwner]

The empirical research suggests that Noel is right in asserting that public chargers will be irrelevant for BEVs and EREVs and most everything else.

It's too early in the game for empirical research to mean much. How many EREVs were on the road three years ago? How many BEVs were on the road three years ago?

Now how many today, and then - how many three years from now? The numbers are increasing at an increasing rate.

As for taking too long to charge, as was pointed out earlier, that's more a function of the vehicle. Especially for BEVs, how fast they can charge will be a spec buyers compare when choosing a vehicle.

 

[DonC]

It's too early in the game for empirical research to mean much. How many EREVs were on the road three years ago? How many BEVs were on the road three years ago?

Now how many today, and then - how many three years from now? The numbers are increasing at an increasing rate.

I think there is plenty of experience. The mini-E experience is probably a good indicator. Also, don't get too excited about the increase in EVs. Basically there are very few on the road and in three years there will still be very few on the road. The very low numbers will keep private businesses from recognizing any benefit from providing free charging.

The only useful chargers will be at home and at work. Rather than messing around with public chargers which won't be of much use to anyone I'd rather see the effort directed at apartments and condos.

 

[TeslaOwner]

I think there is plenty of experience. The mini-E experience is probably a good indicator.

120 vehicles is not plenty in my book.

According to Nissan via greenautoblog, there have been over 4400 Leafs sold in the US this year. So there are now orders of magnitude more EVs on the road today than a year ago.

While charging at home is obviously important, given the range limitations of vehicles like the Leaf, availability of chargers "in the wild" is also important. Movie theaters, sporting events, shopping malls, etc. are all multi-hour charging opportunities. Drug stores like Walgreen's, probably not except that they're often near other retail/food places at which more time could be spent.

 

[voltage692]

Movie theaters, sporting events, shopping malls, etc. are all multi-hour charging opportunities. Drug stores like Walgreen's, probably not except that they're often near other retail/food places at which more time could be spent.

I don't think sporting event locations make sense because of their traffic patterns. They go from nobody there for 90% of the time to 100% capacity for the other 10%. Better to spend the money elsewhere for the chargers that can be use every day throughout the day.

And I wouldn't plan to park at Walgreens to charge and then walk to other stores/restaurants for hours because I wouldn't put it past the management there to get you towed for doing that. They get a cut of the tow, and often the signs that say the parking is only for customers of that establishment are not easily noticeable (on purpose).

 

[TeslaOwner]

And I wouldn't plan to park at Walgreens to charge and then walk to other stores/restaurants for hours because I wouldn't put it past the management there to get you towed for doing that. They get a cut of the tow, and often the signs that say the parking is only for customers of that establishment are not easily noticeable (on purpose).

They better not tow you if you're paying for the charge!

 

[mikeg3]

The major EVSE initiative here in San Antonio was run by the city-owned electric company. They went after visible strategic venues like theaters, supermarkets, colleges, hospitals, downtown municipal parking structures, and shopping malls. No Walgreens or CVS that I know of. No level 3's either.

We get plenty of press here, but it's not all favorable ("100 charging stations got 80 Volts").

While the property owners picked the locations, the electric company encouraged spots that would not fill up quickly with regular cars ("ICEing"). My only complaint is that most spots don't have restrictive signage, so some chargers can never get used.

This seems to be working out a lot better than in cities without a centrally managed deployment program.

BTW, I just signed up for a new all the ChargePoints you can use for $5.00/month deal. Now that's change I can believe in.

BBTW, all the Chevy dealers here have publicly accessible charging stations but unlike Nissan they're not on any station maps. Strange.

 

[Ron C]

I charged at a Walgreens store on Monday - it had a dual-position L2 EVSE and a single-position DC charger (at least that's what I think it was - it looked pretty heavy-duty!). I'll post a picture tomorrow of both. The L2 unit was AeroVironment's dual-position unit and didn't seem to have a way to actually pay for the use.

I mildly (well, maybe more than mildly) abused this privilege - I parked there, walked across the street to have lunch (for an hour), then came back and sat in the store by the pharmacy for another 40 minutes until I had to get back into my office. I think I'm going to end up doing it again tomorrow, which makes it easy to get the pictures. If I do, I'll make it a point to say hi to the store manager and thank him/her for the opportunity.

 

[Ron C]

BBTW, all the Chevy dealers here have publicly accessible charging stations but unlike Nissan they're not on any station maps. Strange.

I don't know if that's the case around Chicagoland. When I had my car in for the customer service repairs, my dealer was pleased to announce to me that their L2 EVSE had finally been installed. That's cool, but it's definitely not in a convenient location - hiding in the service garage. I don't know if theirs is available for my use in top-off charging...

 

[DonC]

IIf I do, I'll make it a point to say hi to the store manager and thank him/her for the opportunity.

RonC, killing public charging one Walgreens store at a time!