I can fill up at a gas station if I am desperate.

That's the point. A BEV can't, and it they're desperate they'll pay the highway robbery these stations represent.

 

$4? Rediculous
That's about DOUBLE what I last heard they were talking about (and that was for up to 2 hours)
So $4 for what, 10-15 miles of range? It would be cheaper to use gasoline!!
Good luck with that.
WOT

 

$4? Ridiculous
That's about DOUBLE what I last heard they were talking about (and that was for up to 2 hours)
So $4 for what, 10-15 miles of range? It would be cheaper to use gasoline!!
Good luck with that.

Is $4 so much? It really should be high enough to keep away the Volts that don't really need it.

Two hours would be nice, though.

 

I've said it before, but let me say it again: All of these chargers at "in & out" places like Walgreen's and Whole Foods and, of all the stupid things, chargers spaced out along a long stretch of freeway are just plain bad for the growth of electric cars because it just makes the public think that electric car don't work out.

No one shops at Walgreen's for 90 minutes unless they really make you wait for that prescription, which means you need to take your business to CVS anyway.

And when you combine a stupid location with price gouging, you are killing the electric car, which is good for Chelsea since she can star in another movie, this time discussing how stupidly priced and located charging stations killed the electric car, but it's bad for the movement.

Would someone please stop this madness??? Do the people in charge of our country's budget make decisions on where to put chargers???

WOT, you're the most powerful one on the board -- do something!

 

A L2 charger provides about 10 miles of charge per hour. So it would cost you $16 to get 40 miles worth of electricity from Walgreens. That's about twice what it costs me to drive 40 miles in my full sized truck.

 

Amen..I saw the news too about Walgreens going to charge $4 for 90 minute charge..no way...I don't "shop" at Walgreens and would not go there to charge my Volt either. Someone isn't thinking at Walgreens..

 

I think this is "convenience store pricing". When BEV become popular - some drivers will not really pay attention to details or will really need the convenience since their state of charge will be low. This is like paying Starbucks $2.00 for a black coffee that you could make at home for $0.25 of materials and energy. People do that all the time - probably similar people who would pay ... hey, wait a minute! People congregate at Starbucks and are of the type of folks who might buy BEVs or plug-in Priuses. You have to think Starbucks is the perfect place for the "Walgreens-style charge & gouge" station. Walgreens - this will be a poor decision to put these in your stores. Starbucks - I'm expecting you to make this type of decision and have at least 5 of them per-parking lot

Volt owners - just scoff at it and "drive past the pump". This is where Volt owners will say "gasoline is cheaper than your electricity".

 

I think this is "convenience store pricing". When BEV become popular - some drivers will not really pay attention to details or will really need the convenience since their state of charge will be low. This is like paying Starbucks $2.00 for a black coffee that you could make at home for $0.25 of materials and energy.

This is an excellent point!

I would also add that there is a complete lack of competition at this point. So this pricing also reflects "Pay me four dollars or have your car towed" pricing. When there are more charge stations, then who would pay $4 for a ten mile charge when the chargers at the Grocery store three blocks away only charge $1.50 for the same charge?

And, as you point out, one more great thing about the Chevy Volt. Volt owners are never this desperate for a charge!

 

I think these things will go in the same direction as high speed internet did in hotels, fast food, etc... Basically earlier adopters will pay for the convenience and in a couple of years everyone will make a big deal about it being free after initial capital cost have been recovered. Personally I don't think these things make much sense at places you're not likely to spend a couple hours at, at least at these prices. So I would place them in malls, sporting events, Costco/Sam's Club, WalMart, etc...

 

Or maybe until the costs shake out to a reasonable level, these are the only places that price would make sense. Get a charge, stay for 15 minutes, and pay a buck for the convenience. Stay any longer and you start feeling gouged. With commercial power rates so low though, I tend to think the places that are cheap, and that tempt you to stay longer and spend more in the store, will do better.

 

I can think of to good points to this announcement.

Discusions like this will encuorage and speed up changes in the laws.

With that price and time limit. there will never be fighting over the use of it.

For these to ever make sense fo the Volt, the Volt would have to be modifed to achive at least a 80% charge in 90 min and the price of gas to be over $5/ gal, both could be possible by the time all of there stores are equiped.

Detroit Edison currently has a much betters deals for home chargers.

 

Marlow, changes in the law?

The good news is that there are companies that see a future need and are willing to invest capital now. I don't worry about the rate one company proposes because supply and demand will sort it out. Ala the wifi mentioned earlier, you could also cite the cell phone industry as well.

 

I agree. If no one uses them, I assume that the price will come down eventually.

Or maybe they will just be abandoned, as so many of the old EV1 era charging stations seem to have been here in CA. They still have the paddle plugs on them, so no one with a J1772 can use them. There are at least 20 at LAX, and hundreds more around the state if you believe the maps.

When things are slow at the shop we sometimes say "Today has been cancelled for lack of interest".

 

From the article:

The charging-by-the-hour model is necessary under current rules because, due to outdated regulations in most states, only utilities themselves can charge for electricity by the kilowatt-hour. California has exempted EVs from those rules, but other states have yet to act.

and

Farkas said the Car Charging Group plans to soon unveil a subscription model in the approximately 22 states that have deregulated electricity. Under that plan, you could pay a flat monthly rate for unlimited charging, both at home and from public chargers the company installed. ... the subscription model would be much cheaper than filling up with gas. People who commute 50 miles daily spend, very conservatively, $40 to $50 a week on gas. The subscription gives you unlimited charging opportunities, at home, at the big-box store, at work, and for less than $20 per week.

So, the pricing issue sounds like a short-term problem. Also, no mention was made of what level charging one gets for the $3-$4. Is that DC fast charging, 30 amp level 2, or something else?

As for hurting BEVs, that's more a function of the charger built into the vehicle. My Roadster can charge at up to a 70 miles of range per hour given a 70amp J1772 (which exist at some Rabobank branches along 101 and at least one place along Hwy 5, both in CA). 90 minutes could yield 105 miles of range, which for $3-$4 ain't a bad deal. As the article says, chargers in cars will get more capable over time, with Nissan planning that the Leaf's charger will double capacity in 2013.

 

So, the pricing issue sounds like a short-term problem. Also, no mention was made of what level charging one gets for the $3-$4. Is that DC fast charging, 30 amp level 2, or something else?

As for hurting BEVs, that's more a function of the charger built into the vehicle. My Roadster can charge at up to a 70 miles of range per hour given a 70amp J1772 (which exist at some Rabobank branches along 101 and at least one place along Hwy 5, both in CA). 90 minutes could yield 105 miles of range, which for $3-$4 ain't a bad deal. As the article says, chargers in cars will get more capable over time, with Nissan planning that the Leaf's charger will double capacity in 2013.

I doubt Walgreens or anyone else in the retail world will be able to create much of a business model for $65,000 400V Level 2 DC chargers to be installed.
At even $4 per HOUR they certainly would be losing money! (50kWh @ 10 cents per is 5 bucks energy cost per hour)

Most of the commercial grade J1772 EVSEs I've seen for these types of applications from the various venders support 30A Level 2 charging @7.2kW maximum which equates to about 25 miles per hour charging (mphc) which at a $3000-$5000 per unit investment is probably "just" do-able potentially receiving a return in a year or two if they are used daily 2-3 times.

But of course 7.2kW is still somewhat overkill for almost all of the J1772 compliant cars that currently exist (Volt, Leaf, iMev) as they are intentionally clipped to 3.3kW (~11.4mphc) mostly in order to facilitate less expensive home 240V EVSE installations (only 20A breaker and wiring required). In fact for the next couple years your Tesla with it's 16.5kW maximum J1772 charge rate would probably be THE ONLY car that could benefit from the 7.2 maximum EVSE output until such time as some of the newer cars that claim a higher 6.6kW rate (~22mphc) such as the 2013 Focus (& Leaf?) can actually make it to market.

But in the meantime this particular "time based" costing model as outlined by Walgreens puts cars at 3.3kW at a distinct disadvantage as it will cost them more than twice as much per kwh than what YOU (a Tesla owner) would pay for 1.5 hours of energy. This is because in 1.5 hours the Volt or Leaf will have amassed 4.95kW but your Tesla would have swallowed up 10.8kW for the same $4. For that matter even 2013 Leaf or Focus owners would also feel somewhat discriminated against receiving just 9.9kW in 1.5 hours. Not such good business practice for a store that sells bologna by the pound!

This I am opposed to. It would be better if they had a selection screen to select your car and priced it accordingly (but still per hour). But of course that would mean a more expensive EVSE that takes longer to pay for itself. (Although most marketing gurus looking at these charging stations consider them more of a tool for increasing business traffic than a direct buy low-sell high profit tool)

Should be interesting to see how it all plays out...

WopOnTour

 

As long as none of my taxpayer dollars are involved, they can charge whatever they want and limit it to whoever they want (provided they don't discriminate on the basis of race, sex, religion national origin and all the other stuff that has been added to the laws). Nothing yet to stop discrimination against extended range electric vehicles, nor does there need to be.

 

I am sure they are involved. There must be a tax break for installing these chargers.

 

350green is installing chargers in the Chicagoland area and was awarded a large contract sometimes ago. I first heard about them helping WalGreens at a monthly local EV club where they had a representative speaking.

I think the WalGreen charges are L2. By far the general issues of L3 is having the businesses_panels/grid/transformers in the area supporting it (per the presentation).

General - non-WalGreen comments.
They install chargers in general at no cost so various businesses can get them. They get some of the profit, of course. http://350green.com/partners/

They talked about a lot of studies/research on where to put the Chicagoland chargers based on areas where there would be a lot of shopping or other time spending opportunities.

BTW, it did not appear to be exactly $4 as Steve's post implies. It is up to $4.

 

Ever since Walgreens wanted to destroy the Gold Dome in Oklahoma City, I have made it a point to shop at CVS whenever possible. Free charge stations may have brought me back, but I will continue to shop CVS.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2008/02/07/filling-the-dome/

 

I never had heard the story of how the Gold Dome was saved. It is an appealing story of a community coming together to preserve a landmark (no matter how unusual.) Thanks for sharing. I see the story as yet another reason why MBA's make some really awful decisions based on the almighty dollar and overlook the human soul.

Love my (never going to pay itself back) Red Volt
(By the way, I think my Red Volt has already paid itself back.)

 

These guys will lose money at every charging station. No worries, they'll make it up on volume.

 

voltage692,

I think that, for the foreseeable future, the BEV will be a niche product for people who can fit it into their commutes by charging at home and hopefully at work. And who have a second car if they want to go outside the range of the BEV.

I see these public charging stations as basically irrelevant unless and until there are thousands of them in convenient locations so that people don't have to wait. I think that GM learned the lessons of the BEV very well from the EV1, hence the EREV/Volt.

I think that Joe America is smart enough to realize this and only buy a BEV if it will fit his lifestyle and save some $$ and/or help with all of the externalities of the iCE which we have discussed here so often.

Which is I guess a long winded way of agreeing with you. So much the better, LOL.

 

I see these public charging stations as basically irrelevant unless and until there are thousands of them in convenient locations so that people don't have to wait.

The plug in cars are truly a game changer here. The problem with BEV is always chicken and egg. There won't be a lot of chargers until there are a lot of BEVs, and vice versa. The plug ins like the Volt will help encourage charging stations while not depending on them.

Hopefully merchants and businesses will take the approach of luring customers and employees by letting them plug in their EREV even though they don't *need* it.

Walgreens is doing the opposite of luring right now.

 

The one and only time I used a charge station was in an overnight parking garage in Baltimore on the U of Md campus. The charge came free with the paid parking. I could have parked elsewhere, but I chose that garage because of the charge station. I think the use of charge stations in this way, just like the exterior outlets at Hampton Inn, provides a competitive advantage for businesses like these. All things being equal, I'll choose the business with a free (or at cost) charge option every time.

 

The major EVSE initiative here in San Antonio was run by the city-owned electric company. They went after visible strategic venues like theaters, supermarkets, colleges, hospitals, downtown municipal parking structures, and shopping malls. No Walgreens or CVS that I know of. No level 3's either.

We get plenty of press here, but it's not all favorable ("100 charging stations got 80 Volts").

While the property owners picked the locations, the electric company encouraged spots that would not fill up quickly with regular cars ("ICEing"). My only complaint is that most spots don't have restrictive signage, so some chargers can never get used.

This seems to be working out a lot better than in cities without a centrally managed deployment program.

BTW, I just signed up for a new all the ChargePoints you can use for $5.00/month deal. Now that's change I can believe in.

BBTW, all the Chevy dealers here have publicly accessible charging stations but unlike Nissan they're not on any station maps. Strange.

 

BBTW, all the Chevy dealers here have publicly accessible charging stations but unlike Nissan they're not on any station maps. Strange.

I don't know if that's the case around Chicagoland. When I had my car in for the customer service repairs, my dealer was pleased to announce to me that their L2 EVSE had finally been installed. That's cool, but it's definitely not in a convenient location - hiding in the service garage. I don't know if theirs is available for my use in top-off charging...

 

I charged at a Walgreens store on Monday - it had a dual-position L2 EVSE and a single-position DC charger (at least that's what I think it was - it looked pretty heavy-duty!). I'll post a picture tomorrow of both. The L2 unit was AeroVironment's dual-position unit and didn't seem to have a way to actually pay for the use.

I mildly (well, maybe more than mildly) abused this privilege - I parked there, walked across the street to have lunch (for an hour), then came back and sat in the store by the pharmacy for another 40 minutes until I had to get back into my office. I think I'm going to end up doing it again tomorrow, which makes it easy to get the pictures. If I do, I'll make it a point to say hi to the store manager and thank him/her for the opportunity.

 

IIf I do, I'll make it a point to say hi to the store manager and thank him/her for the opportunity.

RonC, killing public charging one Walgreens store at a time!