[sifta]

1) The PV roof (which was clearly meant to be for the car, not the owner's house) would be a great standard feature.

From an engineering perspective, it wouldn't be enough to charge the propulsion system for the car. [Also, Lutz's comment that the volt would be programmed to sell power back to the grid while it is parked in the garage needs some work since I'm guessing that the PV panel wouldn't generate much when garaged].

However, it would be a great way to power up for accessories such as Signal/Hazard lights, GPS, radio, On-Star, maybe even heated seats. This could be a foolproof backup power option in case of an engine fault.

2) Regarding the price, recognize that there are Tesla Roadsters selling for $110k. I'm sure that the first two years of Volts will sell out. After that, as Lutz said, there may be a proliferation of EV models to tailor to different segments (cheap vs. luxury).

Since they are rushing the Volt to market and focusing on the technical hurdles in doing so, I would expect that the marketing plan would evolve over the first couple years as they get some customer feedback and are able to refocus from the technical challenges to the business model.

Speaking of business model, it seems that the EV/Hybrids have a different value proposition from ICE cars in that the EVs cost more out of the box but have lower ownership costs vs ICEs. This is not just fuel, but largely in the servicing. I'm not sure that they will have reliable estimates of the total ownership cost for the Volt before year 2-3 of production.

On this basis, it might make more sense for them to sell the Volt in a fundamentally different way than they sell ICE cars. Once they get a good idea of what the ownership costs of the Volt are, I would actually have the Volt exclusively on a 4-year lease plan with service included (via warranty)
and an option to buy after that point. That way they could spread out the ownership costs of the Volt over the plan and make the price point much more competitive with the equivalent ICE option if you factor in the servicing, etc.

3) If this truly represents the future of GM, then at some point down the trail, the dealer model needs to be revamped as well. They may well wind up going to a Saturn dealership-model for the EVs.

 

[shawnmarshall]

A PV roof is ridiculous. It is too expensive and has little practical use;this is a mistake the market will correct. Trying to appeal to eco-dogues.

!0,000 vehicles in 2011? I think this is sandbagging. Toyoda will eat GM for lunch if so.

Service every 3 mos to clean out fuel tank? Absurd. Trying to lock in maintenance fees.

Just under $40k? Look for a 20 mile Prius at $30k.

Lutz is no dummy so I hope this trial balloon is really just a smoke screen. If not, GM disappears.

 

[Rick4]

Some comments on your comments.

1. GM will get the Volt to the showroom as soon as humanly possible. Even if gas fell in half there is enough demand and risk (that the price will swing back up) that there will still be substantial demand for the Volt.

2. The Volt will not have tons of bells and whistles its first year. There will be no need to do this. It will sell on its own merits.

3. Forget about leasing a Volt. Tax credits do not apply to leases and GM is looking for those to subsidize the buyer price (so that they can charge more in its first years to offset the development costs). The Prius didn't start leasing until 2007. 9 years after it came out. I leased it because I am subject to the AMT and tax credits are worthless.

4. Expect problems with the first models. It always happens. Even with ICEs. So, with a whole new technology out, expect hangups and if you should be so lucky to get one - be patient. It won't be perfect.

I suspect that Toyota and other competitors will be ready with their own technology. There are strong rumors and some redesigned (Priuses at various international auto shows) that support some pretty impressive designs and performance stats. Maybe exceeding the Volt's. This is on technology that has been around for 10 years.

I also suspect that the Japanese companies have already tried the Volt platform with electric only propulsion. I wonder why they didn't go with it. Maybe there are more issues than we think....

I'd love to get my hands on a Volt when it comes out but on the other hand I don't want to wait around paying $8 gal for gas in 2010 while GM tweaks its new car. There will be plenty of alternatives by then.

 

[Sandy1]

40K, rules me out too! Sorry GM. Looks like the T gets my next new car.

 

[Pete6]

Have any of you electric genius'es thought about where electricity comes from? You're all salivating over 40 miles range from plugging in. Have any idea that the electricity for that will come from coal, oil, or natural gas generating plants. So much for emission free driving!

Have any of you given any thought to what will happen when millions of people start plugging in their electric cars for a charge. Like many brown outs! When demand for electricity exceeds supply it will go up in price too. More nuclear power plants will help this but they will be as slow in coming as drilling for more oil here. This is an interesting technical innovation and will hopefully get better. The greatest benefit is if the gas mileage will be greatly increased over current hybrids. Also, what makes some of you think your employer is going to pay the electric bill for their employees to charge their cars at work. Thats really absurd.

 

[Brad_G]

#143 Pete / you must be new here:

1)The 40 mile range is the average American commute so you would not have to plug in at the office.

2) When people get home from work they would be charging at night which is off peak electrical hours.

3) Electrical plants are cleaner burning and have less emissions that all the internal combustion engines running out there.

4) I agree with you we need to go nuclear and get off coal and natural gas to produce electricity

 

[Brian_L]

Additionally, electric cars could simply charge themselves only at night, when the electricity grid is generating a bunch of power that is simply not used (wasted) because power plants can't simply be turned up during the day and down at night.

My 2010-2012, I'm hoping to have the house to a point we can install solar if the prices have come down another 30%. Then we'll be emission free for the house and transportation.

Brian

 

[jwcrim1]

There is a projection that assuming by 2030 that 25% of all cars are plug-in, and that all charging is grid coordinated and off-hours, that only eight new power plants will be needed by 2030 to handle the impact.

Off-hour charging make a huge difference in grid requirements (more than an order of magnitude).

 

[hermant3]

Even if the electricity produced by the PV roof could add a couple of miles to the all-electric range, the weight of the PV roof would probably reduce the all-electric range by a couple of miles. So what's the point?

Further, we're not talking about a $200 option. We're not even talking about a $2000 option. It's more like $4000 by today's PV technology prices!

Also, any RVer knows you don't pack heavy stuff in your motorhomes upper cabinets. That makes you even more top heavy since it raises the center of gravity. Why would it make any more sense to place heavy PV cells up on the roof of your lightweight car?

 

[Rick4]

There is another big point that we are missing on the use of many electric plants vs. 500 million fuel burning cars. It is much easier to sequester the polution (CO2 incl.) from a power plant with emerging technology than retrofit all the individual cars. Therefore as carbon sequestration and CO2 conversion technologies become practical we will be able to get it to market much quicker.

Also, you cannot burn coal in a car (yet - who knows with synfuel, shale oil, etc.). It makes sense to use an alternative fuel (electric) that isn't an expensive liquid (gasoline/diesel).

 

[jwcrim1]

" It is much easier to sequester the polution (CO2 incl.) from a power plant with emerging technology than retrofit all the individual cars."

Agree.

With electricity as the energy transport medium, it is also easier and quicker to phase out and switch to new energy sources or to add a mix of energy sources in the future. Changing power plants isn't easy but it's is a lot easier than changing car technologies.

You get to use what's available as it becomes available. For example existing nuclear technology can be used initially then replaced or augmented by a mix of solar, clean coal, etc. as the new technologies come on line. The grid and the cars needn't change.

 

[omegaman66]

Solar panel roof right now would be stupid. Good thing GM isn't planning on doing that yet. Maybe in the future when prices come way way down. I guess a lot of people here think a pv roof would extend the range of the volt enough to make a hill of beans difference or they wouldn't be pushing for it so hard. Gaining one mile of range on the drive home from work (not to work) at the added cost of thousands makes about as much sense as a fur sink.

 

[Grizzly2]

Omeaga 66

"Solar panel roof right now would be stupid."

*** *** ***

Yes it would since it would do very little but cost quite a bit. GM has bigger hurdles in bringing this vehicle to market and again I must stress that it is no small task. Much engineering work to be done to make the 2011 deadline.

 

[CWR64]

I recently retired at 61 and bought a Saturn Aura for roughly $20K including rebates. I waited for months for Saturn to field their Aura hybrid in Dallas - never happened & I gave up waiting. I know from talking to others going into retirement and who are looking to buy or have bought their "retirement cars" that $40K is way beyond what they will spend. I think that retirees are a fairly good sized car market, but we won't be able to afford a Volt.

 

[kevmark58]

Retirees are going to be the biggest segment of the car market soon. The largest demographic in history, the baby boomers are now entering retirement age. This entire group will be downsizing homes and cars (SUV's) and the Volt fits this segment of the population perfectly as most will be living in urban settings. You're absolutely right in saying that at $40,000 it will be out of the reach of a huge market, whose incomes will be flattening or declining. The twenty something crowd has huge student loan debts and won't be able to afford this car either.

Price it around $25-30 and its a game changer and will propel GM in front of the competition. Price it higher and the competition will forever leave GM behind and relegated to the history books of once powerful corporations.

 

[Peasant]

This is but a simple man's offering, but the Venturi Eclectic vehicle on the website http://www.gizmag.com/go/6240/ currently (?) being produced in small numbers is a solar-wind hybrid tauted as completely autonomous. It is pricey of course. And it is limited in speed and range, but it shows what is possible. In response to the person above concerning wind turbines, they would be placed on the vehicle roof (or on the ground) while it is parked, not while driving. In response to the folks who know about solar technology, the solar recharging is 7 kw per day of exposure. Several people have calculated numbers like 2.5 kw or 200 W. This vehilce could be a hoax, or they could be lying, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[Randy6]

I don't care about a photo-voltaic roofs, electric chipmunks, or fancy options. Let’s not lose sight of what the end goal is! Just get the car to market, and get that 40 mile round-trip! And for 25-30K like GM said in the beginning. If it's 30-40K then I'll probably be in a Prius.

Look GM, 40K is just stupid. Unless you are a movie star or flat-out rich that ain't gonna fly. I want to help the planet and save money at the pump, but it isn't financially feasible for most people. If 40K is the only way GM can get this car to market, then GM has FAILED! What happened to American ingenuity?

If the Volt is released at 40K, ten years later GM will be wondering why nobody wanted an electric automobile. Ummmmm– few people can afford 40K?

I was really jazzed when I saw the prototype and initial specs and cost. But I’m becoming rather disappointed when I see where things appear to be headed. My experience leads me to believe that if GM is saying under 40K now, it will be 45-50K at release.

 

[jwcrim1]

Once the wherewithal becomes available to make electric cars do what you would really need them to do, and cost what you can justify, then the decision to buy one becomes a no brainer. Until then building, selling and buying these things is not going to be a practical exercise for very many and the early activity will be driven by a desire for contributing to the effort or at least being seen as doing so.

But before any battery cost/performance/weight breakthrough comes along, there are some events that could change the picture. Those who recall the seventies remember the very high gas prices but also remember something that has not happened to us today (yet): The unavailability of gasoline. Mile-long gas lines, riots.

Should the availability of gasoline again become insufficient and remain insufficient, all the consumers' economic arguments for rational price thresholds go out the window. $40k would look like a steal for a useable plug-in.

Until then, part of the indirect value of a plug-in is insurance. You are buying a means for short, emergency trips in case gasoline becomes difficult or impossible to obtain. As this threat becomes more real, the market will reflect it and seeing the new market, manufacturers will be able to respond with much more capable but very high priced plug-in cars - without losing their shirts. Today of course, those prices would not fly.

If this happens then, long term the large new high priced market would drive technology. If it's in the cards, advances would be made and prices would gradually come down.

There's no gas like no gas.

 

[Randy6]

Ummmm - no. 40K will not be acceptable. We are not in the 70's, things are much different now. Yes, new technology comes at a price, and new adopters will always pave the way by incurring higher costs, but 40K would assume that there are no other cars or technology available. Put a plug on a Prius and you get even more MPG with no really new technology. It's not that people will have to buy a 40K car, it's that they can't afford to buy a 40K car! Just saying that they have to buy a 40K car does not make it happened. Don't lose sight that Chevy is not the only manufacturer out there vying for business.

 

[jwcrim1]

Stay tuned.