[Carcus]

Green-tech patents:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/03/gm-chrysler-lag-industry-leaders-in-green-tech-patents-study-finds.html

/I wonder if Ford and Toyota are fighting over software copyright/patents in the plug- in applications or if they have some sort of agreement in this area as well.

 

[Carcus]

One thing that I think cannot be overstated is the importance of software development in the advancement of plug in hybrids (series/parallel as well as series).

It's very difficult to guess what battery size is going to result in what kind of mpg because of the impact of the software (again, ford is claiming 80 to 120 mpg on the plug in escape with 10kwh of battery). With all the time and resources OEM's can commit to writing code, the mpg's will far exceed anything we've seen from aftermarket attempts by companies like hymotion (which do little or nothing to alter the software).

Here's a separate but somewhat related video by Siemens PLM Software (a supplier to ford) that shows how rapidly software code is moving to the forefront in the auto industry.

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/about_us/success/case_study.cfm?ComponentTemplate=1481&Component=63184
-- click the "watch video" under the picture on the right

 

[Demi_More]

Go Prius. This will just be 1st gen Prius. By the time the Volt finally is for sale they will have 2nd or 3rd gen plug-in that will exceed Volt AER at a much much lower price and of course Toyota's famous reliability (which is priceless by itself).

 

[W_Ford]

You don't know squat !

 

[DonC]

A lot of what you're saying is true, but Ford's success has been more than than simple luck. I'm not sure GM under Wagoner would have had the ballocks to do what Mulally has done at Ford. The Presidential Automotive Task Force seems to have reached this conclusion when deciding that they needed a new CEO. Rick Wagoner had many good qualities, and he was always a class act, but he was too conservative for a situation in which being conservative was a recipe for failure.

We need to give credit where credit is due.

 

[W_Ford]

No luck involved. I suggest you go back to business school and STFU.

 

[hermperez]

it may affect the price of oil

 

[H_Hogan]

You must be gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[DonC]

Happy 4th Everyone! Only one more year until Tag gets to drive his Volt!

The price of the plug in Prius should not be surprising, though it may be somewhat on the high side. Giving the Prius an extended electric range is not, as so many seemingly think, a simple matter of sticking a larger battery in the trunk. You have to upgrade the entire drive train and re-gear the HSD. At the end of the day you end up with a Camry with an extra EV drive train. As these numbers suggest, this is a very expensive way to go.

The Prius and the Volt are different horses designed for different courses. The Prius has a super design for short commutes. The Volt has a super design for long commutes. The Prius will not be easily transformed into a cost effective PHEV20 nor will the Volt be easily transformed into a cost effective PHEV10.

If you want to electrify transportation you have several choices. You can go an expensive E-REV route like GM and Fisker. You can go a really expensive premium BEV route like Tesla or a merely very expensive BEV route like Coda. You can go the more modestly priced non-conventional BEV route like Aptera. Or you can go an affordable hybrid route like Ford, Toyota, GM, and Honda. Time will tell what works -- they may all work actually -- but trying to turn one approach into another seems like a sure fire loser.

 

[Terry13]

GM should keep its edge on Toyota, and sell some of the Volts being made this year (pre-production units made in Warren) to the public, with the added requirements of not only plugging the car into power each night, but also plugging into the Internet so the GM engineers could gather data and tweek the software of real users' cars. Getting the Volts released, even in small numbers, as 2010 vehicles (this fall) would be great press. True it would be limited release, but not much different than Toyota's proposed initial sales into fleets

If anyone at GM is reading it this and thinks its a good idea, contact me

 

[Carcus]

"You have to upgrade the entire drive train and re-gear the HSD."

____________

Where are you getting this info from?

Toyota is bringing 500 plug in Prius' to fleet customers in a few months. Are you saying they've "upgraded the entire drive train" on these?

The changes to convert gen 3 to plug in are not huge. A little bit of suspension and a lot of software.
----

That $48,000 for a imiev or plug in prius is a load of crap.

Sure they might ask for it (and get it) for a short period of time. But there's nothing real world to indicate that price is necessary or sustainable.

 

[left_wing_lear-jet_liberal]

You don't actually mean "Relive" - right ?

 

[Carcus]

From MIT's "Technology Review":

"The 2010 Prius available to consumers will still come equipped with a nickel-metal-hydride (NiMH) battery pack and no plug, but Toyota says that it is "plug-in ready"--designed and engineered to accept a lighter and more energy-dense lithium-ion battery pack that can be charged from the grid. Toyota will also produce 500 lithium-powered plug-in Priuses for its commercial and government leasing customers starting later this year. Toyota-Panasonic joint venture Panasonic EV Energy will supply the lithium batteries."


The new Prius is designed so that its battery pack can be swapped out for a plug-in lithium-ion battery.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/21951/page1/

/so maybe it won't even need the suspension work.

 

[GXT3]

Thanks carcus1 for injecting some facts.

Given that the Prius is $22-27,000 and that the larger battery will likely only need to be 1/4-1/3 the size of the Volt's and there is already some battery cost in the current Prius I would expect the plug-in Prius to be in the $30,000 range depending on features.

 

[DonC]

You're right about the complexity but the real problem when trying to give a Ford/Toyota HSD vehicle an EV mode are the demands on the individual cells. The smaller the battery the more stress on the cells. That's the problem HSD is designed to address - it uses the ICE to protect the cells from fast discharges during hard accelerations or high speeds. (It's also the reason why Toyota limits the speed in EV mode).

A large battery pack will provide the same protection since cell discharge will be slower and there will be fewer charge and discharge cycles. GM is gambling that a 16 kWh battery is big enough to do this, but it's hard to imagine a smaller battery pack being able to adequately protect the cells. So Toyota has to choose. It can use a smaller pack and then spend a lot of bucks and sacrifice performance to protect the cells. Or it can use a larger pack which results in a very expensive vehicle, the expense being attributable both to the large pack and its controls as well as the expensive and complicated HSD system (which serves no real purpose that a simpler gen-set couldn't).

You can see the results of this conundrum here. What you end up with is a PHEV20 that has a battery pack which is so large the vehicle isn't cost competitive but too small to protect the cells. Seems like the worst of all worlds.

 

[WarrenPeace11]

I understand the price will be relatively expensive for the plugin. Close to $40,000.00 or below.
Toyota will make a nice profit on this model because they'll have a simple change to the new Prius. Although it is a simple change like adding a charger, increase battery storage and alter software, they will run the price close to the Volt simply because they can. Why charge way less if GM is charging over $40K? Regardless of how most folks say they are not the same car, Toyota will bump the price close to the "Competition".

 

[GXT3]

In addition to Herm's points, some advantages of the Prius over the Volt (and I am surprised that GM "will allow itself to get exposed like that" :

1) The ICE in the Prius may propel the car by itself. Therefore reserved battery capacity requirements may be decreased. Therefore less dead weight and better fuel economy. Also a lower cost to the consumer. This allows Toyota to make the plug-in Prius have a lower electric range which is what is most efficient as more consumers will tend to use more of the battery that they carry more often. It also means Toyota will be less likely to be constrained by battery capacity.

2) The Toyota design is an evolutionary design. It will be less likely to have problems.

3) HVAC on the Prius has the potential to be more efficient than on the Volt. The Prius may be better for more extreme temperatures (time will tell).

 

[GXT3]

"The one true advantage of the Volt’s serial architecture is flexibility, it can easily and quickly be adapted to any car. Toyota’s system requires lots of fine tuning and unique parts to adapt to a car."

This doesn't ring true. Toyota's system has been put in what, 5 or 6 different vehicles already?

Just go ahead and try to fit 16KWh of battery, an electric drive and an ICE in the Malibu or Metro... it may not be quite so easy.

 

[statik7]

Hi Van, I'm not exactly sure why you are telling me specs...maybe just for information to the board?

I think maybe there is some confuse as to my statement, I said Toyota wants to make it a option IN 2010...I didn't say for the 2010 model. ("suggest it as a option in 2010") Toyota would offer in 2010, but it would be on the 2011 badged Prius' in late summer/early fall.

Your right they have waffled a bit on it...and I question myself if it will make it to the options list in time for the 2011 model. I think that had something to do with the demand of what they are offering now... they are pretty busy just trying to pump on the standard version.

Toyota certainly spawned the talk that it would be coming (and in 2010). First at the autoshow, then a couple occasion after that:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Toyota-Prius-Fisker-Tesla,5649.html

/shrug

 

[hayley]

Did you even read the post?

"Toyota has now committed to mass producing plug-in hybrid cars in 2012."

Good luck getting the 2nd or 3rd gen out in 2010 when the Volt hits the market...