[Carcus]

Big news here.

From those AER numbers I would also guess a 6kwh battery.

After the dust settles you're probably talking about a $3,000 to $5,000 upgrade for a car that will get the average driver something close to 100 mpg during normal daily drive cycles (as long as you remember to plug it in).

And even if you forget to plug it in, you know it's going to get 50 mpg (something that hasn't been proven yet, in the volt).

I think this Nikkei report represents the first time big oil has heard the electric car hit the heavy bag with some impact.

I'm very much looking forward to round 1 . . . just wish I didn't have to wait so long for the "ding, ding".

 

[R.V.]

Thanks Lyle, You are a Great American! Happy 233rd Independence Day!

 

[hermperez]

18.6 miles range requires 4.65kwh of usable capacity, derating it by 100% like GM does means a pack of 9.3kwh total capacity.. at an LG cost (no idea what Toyota will pay but probably in the ballpark) of around $800 per kwh then that is $7440 for that new pack. Substract about $2300 (the cost of a present Prius nimh pack) then that means the plug in option will cost an extra $5140. Lithium cells may be cheaper by then also.

Base price of a stripped Prius is $22k plus $5140, total will be around $27k for the plug-in Prius.

Then Hy-Motion offers a separate optional pack to increase the all-electric range.

 

[Mike-o-Matic]

>> No Vets, No Freedom

WORD. This bears repeating!!

Happy Independence Day everybody!

 

[hermperez]

Toyota just stealed the thunder so GM will counterattack.. if I was Lyle I would stick close to the phone today...there may be a helicopter waiting in front of his house right now!

 

[Dale5]

Happy 4th to everyone!

Thanks to all of the active and veteran servicemen.

Thanks Lyle for helping lead America to energy independence.

And Finally - I am with TAG - GM sell your first Volt in one year from today!! July 4th, 2010. I will pay extra for mine in black.

 

[statik7]

Just curious after reading the comments in this thread this far...where does it say in that article that this is going to be a plug-in Prius?

I'm not saying it isn't...or can't be, but it was my understanding the the plug-in Prius right now in test fleets is at best a 10 mile AER, and they are wanted to make it a consumer option in 2010.

Why would Toyota put out a fleet now, and suggest it as a option in 2010, then put out a press release saying they are going to do a 18 miler in 2012...and intend that to be a Prius also? Are they touting a 2 year delay on expectations?

...just a thought

 

[statik7]

As to pricing, I don't want to go down the road too far again, but Japanese EVs are subsidized to 'whazoo' and are priced as such. A direct translation of $47,800 to the American market a little disingenuous....post rebate in Japan, that would be around $31,000. Your likely to see a similar bottom line in America...if it ever comes here (which they don't mention).

It is also pretty hard to make a judgement on the value of the car, when we have no clue what it is, what it looks like...or what it can or can't do.

Side note: So many EVs coming in 2012...I miss the days when we were going to have so many EVs in 2010 and 2011. Kind of reminds me watching grass grow...in the winter.

 

[Van1]

Hi Statik @ 24, (I failed to hit the reply button

Toyota built a few Plug-in Priuses, see the one pictured at top of article. These were prototypes to test the concept. They had a 2.6 NiMH battery, actually two of the 1.3 kWh standard batteries. It had a range of 7-8 miles. For some reason, folks concluded the lithium battery version would have the same range. Obviously this assumption was in error. The Plug-in Priuses (500 of them) with lithium batteries which will enter fleet sales starting in December 2009 will likely have a range similar to the range given in the article.

Second, I am not sure Toyota suggested the plug-in would be an option on the 2010 model. I had expected it on the 2011 model, but now it looks like the 2012 model. So perhaps we are looking at a 1, vice 2, year delay in expectations.

 

[tom_gray]

I see that Toyota isn't looking to break any electric driving range records. With BOTH upcoming Chinese BYD cars sporting 60 mile ranges, Toyota is in danger of being laughed off the stage if they try to boast about their technology. Notice also the reality versus the silly nonsensical arguments contained in that fictitious Hollywood "documentary" "Who killed .." where the leading automakers (here Toyota and Honda) resisted new electric technology and thereby led to its destruction because all of the other 24 major automakers blindly followed T & H's lead.

 

[jeffreykb]

I think that Toyota will produce similar quantities of PHEVs as GM (yes...I know that EREV is a different design)...if just for PR reasons. Due to sales volume, the non-PHEV Toyota hybrids can be considered more than just a halo vehicles. Also, Toyota PHEV would help remove a portion of the halo vehicle label on the non-PHEV Prius which would push it more into the mainstream. I think that it would help Toyota steer their customers to hybrid powertrain versions of their other models.

 

[ccombs]

I knew they would do it sooner or later. They just wanted to wait till it was a sure deal. Their design is, imho, inferior to EREV, but it will work well for a lot of people. The cost will probably come down, but since they don't use as large of a battery the Volt's cost will come down more quickly since it has more to gain from battery advances and won't need a complex transmission.

 

[hermperez]

"(1)In Charging depleting mode (or EV mode with the ICE using no gas) the Series design since it has a larger motor, will accelerate faster."

This is just a design choice of the engineers and the marketing dept.. not an intrinsic benefit of either architecture.

"(2) The parallel design used in the Prius limits top speed in EV mode to below 62 MPH. However, hackers have reached greater than 62 MPH with the ICE rotating but with the gas shutoff."

Again a design choice, and correction: the engine in the Prius DOES NOT turn when in the EV mode, even at 62mph.. The engine in the Insight does turn at all times, and same with GM's BAS system.

"(3)" same answer

"(4) The series design is simpler, and therefore should have lower maintenance costs."

The Prius has proven itself extremely reliable, even in taxi service.. but that may just be general made-in-Japan Toyota quality. Both designs are just as complex.

The one true advantage of the Volt's serial architecture is flexibility, it can easily and quickly be adapted to any car. Toyota's system requires lots of fine tuning and unique parts to adapt to a car.

 

[hermperez]

I just remembered a third way to do it, Renault's thru-the-road parallel system. That one is fairly simple to build and fine tune.. rear wheels are electric driven and the front wheels are just a normal FWD ice setup. The disadvantage of this system is lower quality brake regen.

 

[Dan_Petit]

The thing about Japan is, the country is the size of our State of Nevada. There are about 180 million people crammed onto that island. They must absolutely control what comes into Japan, because it is so expensive to have a garage or to store things.

I was astonished to know that real estate in Japan goes for something like a thousand dollars a square foot or higher. (I'll bet someone here can correct me as to a possible far higher figure. For property at ground level, I understand that the "footprint value" might be five figures if it is an office building in Tokyo).
Of course you can not afford to bring in outside stuff into Japan for that reason. There just is not any room for anything more.

Other countries know this. I do not think Japan discriminates on purpose, but they just have to strictly control anything coming into there, due to the overpopulation.

Dan.

 

[Carcus]

This "spam" thing drives me nuts.

 

[DaveG]

With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius plug-in 18.6….. 146
Prius plug-in 12.4….. 171
Prius ………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570

Assumptions:
Prius: 150 mpg during electric assist, 50 mpg thereafter
Volt: 40 miles all-electric range, 50 mpg thereafter
The Chevy Volt’s Electric Range is 40 Miles in Both Highway and City Driving
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/

Typical driving pattern:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day

11,390 total miles per year

More info here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/GallonsPerYear.xls

 

[twist]

A $40,000+ Prius?

Does Toyota realize that a stock Prius at $25,000 and 45 mpg is going to trump buyers down payments every time?

A surprising move from Toyota. It's time to shift to EREV.

=D~

 

[Carcus]

From Webwire: Ford's leading sales in Canada.

"OAKVILLE, Ontario – For the first time in more than 50 years, Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited is the top-selling automaker in the country. Ford of Canada sold 27,408 units representing a 24.6 per cent increase over sales the same month last year, marking the first year-over-year sales increase of 2009."

-Statik, have you got some input on this one?

//ref. all ye posters of little faith at #2

 

[Dan_Petit]

Maybe those plug-ins will be sold as mail carrier fleet vehicles.
Or very short distance fleet vehicles. That way, the limited distance of the smaller battery would seem to be practicable.
If for a mail carrier, then there would not be the cd consideration at lower speeds.

Plus, in Japan, you really don't drive more than 3 or 4 thousand miles a year.
There is always an abundant supply of good used Japanese auto engines available here, (shipped here from Japan's used car recycling facilities), because they are likely just broken in.

It is the salt air in Japan that severely and quickly rusts out the bodies of cars over there.

I remember when I was stationed on Okinawa, and, I had a 1967 corolla, I had to go and have 18 different annual inspections for it to keep it on the road. (I was in technology investigations counter-intelligence in the Air Force, and enjoyed every workday).

But Toyota apparently is trying. Possibly the discussions we have had here might have, in part, helped to "hold someone's toes to the fire", and tell us more.
But anyway, good for them. (AND, Less competition for me to get a Volt!!).
Dan.