[montgom626]

If the Volt is plugged-in, it cannot be put into Drive. I would think that would be a reasonable argument against an "unattended vehicle left running" charge.

What is meant by the word "running". ? Let the Lawyers figure that one out!!!!!!

 

[CarZin]

It is going to vary state by state. Some states are very specific in their laws. Others leave room for interpretation. This was an issue I became aware of a long time ago. People with turbos would want to install turbo timers to run the engine for a few minutes after you exited the car. This would give time for the engine to cool, and to cycle cooler lubricant. Not doing this, had you been boosting a lot before you shut down, would leave your engine cooking for the really hot oil.

 

[Slapshot28]

I think one reason that car companies do not want to shut down a car automatically (unless it runs out of gas) is that some people are idiots, and leave their child in the car with the car running. Leaving children and/or pets in a car is a known cause of many fatalities and near-fatalities (http://ggweather.com/heat/). No car company wants to be responsible for exacerbating this problem, by having a car shut off automatically.

By the way, this hits home personally for us. We have dear friends who have suffered terribly because of this very issue.

 

[CarZin]

That is actually the first reasonable example of where shutting off a car could present problems, even though not only is doing this illegal in certain states, its a really bad idea.

This is where a previous example of sending someone an alert that their car is on, and letting them make the decision remotely would resolve this concern. That, or allow the automatic disablement of the car a selective option. Or do all of the above, and if there is a person or object detected in a seat, also bypass disabling the service.

 

[CarZin]

Probably the simplest thing would just be to alert the driver with a bunch of chirps when they get out of the car and it is still running. No worries of children or animals getting hurt if the engine is shut off, and some loud honking and light actions would probably be enough. You could add a remote control aspect of that with onstar if you wanted to turn it off as well if that didnt work. Numerous ways to solve this. I'm sure we are only scratching the surface of the concerns, but its nothing that can't be improved at a minimum by passive means, at a maximum by active means.

 

[DonC]

I just have a problem believing that if someone ignored ALL the warnings there are now, one more would "do the trick". If the Volt is ON, then all the dashes are illuminated. Hard to miss. Then, when you get out of the Volt and it's ON, you get an earful of BONG BONG BONG BONG. Then you get three more bongs indicating the remote isn't nearby. If you miss all that then the only thing I can see working is WOT's boxing glove.

 

[WopOnTour]

I just have a problem believing that if someone ignored ALL the warnings there are now, one more would "do the trick". If the Volt is ON, then all the dashes are illuminated. Hard to miss. Then, when you get out of the Volt and it's ON, you get an earful of BONG BONG BONG BONG. Then you get three more bongs indicating the remote isn't nearby.
If you miss all that then the only thing I can see working is WOT's boxing glove.

Besides the existing warnings when the car is ON as you describe...
There is also a unique audio cue when the car is shut down (the cool spaceship power down tone)
Unfortuately many people eventually turn down these audio cues after the honeymoon is over, but these can provide important additional feedback that one can learn to anticipate and expect.

I don't dispute there might be something that can be done to improve the current behavior, but all I can say is the current configuration reflects a combination of federal regulations, historical baggage, and legal culability issues.
(ie if you do not follow the owners manual to shut down your car, whose fault is it??)
Still thinking the boxing glove might be the only infallible solution
WOT

 

[CarZin]

You know, what I once thought of as a negative with my Mini Cooper, is now a positive. The Mini Cooper has a fob. But unlike the Volt key, you have to place the fob in a little slot, it which is locks in place, in order to start the car. The car is a push button start. When you want to take the key out, the car must be turned off, or it remains locked in place. I now understand why they are doing this, as opposed to what GM is doing.

 

[DonC]

The BMW had the same "fob in slot" design. Hated it. With a passion. Going back to that dumb design is a huge step backwards. To me this is like the 8A charging in the 2013 MY Volts. You're making everyone suffer an annoyance every day just to protect a few from themselves.

 

[CarZin]

I don't think 30% is a few, but I guess that is subjective. At 30%, I consider it a design flaw. I don't like driving with the keys in my pocket, so its not really an inconvienence to me. I have to put them somewhere. In any event, I am not saying GM should go back to this method, but I appreciate it more. I had wondered why they went that route, and I suspect liability was a big factor.

I was sent this link which I think is a good and detailed description of the problems with these keys, regulations that manufacturers seem to be ignoring, and the consequences.

http://thesafetyrecord.safetyresearch.net/2011/11/01/not-so-smart-key-standard/

 

[DonC]

First, the poll is not a sample much less a scientific sample. You could do another poll and it would be 3%. Second, you'd need to know how long the car was left on. Was it a minute? Two? Ten? You need to know not only that someone left the car on, but also how significant leaving it on was, and whether it resulted in any real harm.

Which leads us to the issue that you're so fixated on the problem of leaving the car running, which doesn't seem nearly as serious as you're making it out to be (you've yet to come up with an actual scenario where the person is in an enclosed space, the car starts running the engine, and they don't notice), that you keep forgetting the benefits of leaving it running . More people and pets die from drivers who forget to leave the car running than those who die from drivers who forget to turn the cars off. If more people left the car running when they left the car in the sun while they popped into the store we'd have fewer deaths. Yet this is exactly what your "safer" approach would actually prevent. As far as I'm concerned, the easier it is to leave the car running the better.

 

[CarZin]

Don,

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make a product better. I have already stated that a passive approach may be the best. This creates no harm for the pets or people, other than a little noise, and would remind a person as they exit the car and close the door that the car is still on. This makes all the concern about people overheating in cars moot.

you've yet to come up with an actual scenario where the person is in an enclosed space, the car starts running the engine, and they don't notice

Don, you don't need to be in the garage for CO to kill you. It can easily get into your home, and there are already cases where people have died as a result of this. I don't have to provide examples, because those examples are already in multiple links above.

My concern, as I keep stating over and over again, is you CANNOT use previous data as an indicator of the potential problem, as the Volt will most likely NOT be running the engine when you get out. The people in previous cases, except for the Prius instances, left their ICE running, ignored it, and then died in their homes later with the CO. You can infer many more people with traditional vehicles with fobs exited the car, with it running, and realized, upon hearing the engine, and shut it off. In any event, I expect this issue to be less of an issue with a traditional ICE, even though there is evidence of a tiny fraction of people having problems, and more with the hybrid electric vehicles. While this poll is hardly scientific, it has a decent number of responses, where it shows a trend worth considering for further review. Someone from GM telling me to complain to my regulators is about the worst response I could ever expect to hear.

It may be easier to leave the car running, but that DOESN'T excuse GM for not making a loud cue when you exit the vehicle and shut the door that the car is left on. The dings you hear when you open the door is something we often hear, as we step out of our cars to get the mail/etc. It is easy to miss as you are accustomed to it. You are much less likely to be accustomed to actually shutting the door with a running car, and hearing a loud horn pulse. Or a bunch of chirps.

There is no excuse for not having a passive system. An active system would be beneficial if it was sufficiently engineered.

This is a thread where a Volt owner had his garage fill with fumes after he apparently left it on:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?13884-Volt-Gave-Me-a-Scare&highlight=fumes

Not entirely related, but does show how CO easily leaks from attached garages to create hazards:
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Pages/communications/CO/co_car.html

Related Toyota deaths:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...motoring/news/8592170/Toyota-car-key-blamed-for-two-carbon-monoxide-deaths.html

5 teen deaths when car was left running in garage:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...icle-1342132/5-teens-dead-car-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-Florida-motel-room.html

Another death:
http://davidsonnews.net/blog/2012/03/21/police-say-pfeiffer-professor-died-of-carbon-monoxide/

I can find plenty more. What can you conclude from these links? Cars running in garages kill. They kill people in homes that are not in the garage. It is a concern that is very serious.

 

[CarZin]

Then, when you get out of the Volt and it's ON, you get an earful of BONG BONG BONG BONG. Then you get three more bongs indicating the remote isn't nearby

I missed this earlier. Other than the dings you hear when you open the door and the car is on, I just got out of my car when it was on, shut the door, and I get NO audio cues.

The ONLY time I three chirps is when I power the car off, shut the door, and the keys are still inside. Maybe there is a setting that isnt configured on my car?

EDIT: I see what you are referring to. The 3 chirps that sound on the INSIDE of the car after you are a good bit away from the car. Not good enough.

 

[DonC]

It may be easier to leave the car running, but that DOESN'T excuse GM for not making a loud cue when you exit the vehicle and shut the door that the car is left on. The dings you hear when you open the door is something we often hear, as we step out of our cars to get the mail/etc. It is easy to miss as you are accustomed to it. You are much less likely to be accustomed to actually shutting the door with a running car, and hearing a loud horn pulse. Or a bunch of chirps.

I measured the BONGS. They're annoying and between 76dB and 78dB. Hard to miss. So GM has definitely provided a "loud cue", which is what you're asking for.

Now if you're saying that they're loud enough but this doesn't matter because people will become habituated to the BONGS, that's a classic case of an argument that doesn't hold because it proves to much. You can use this argument to claim that ANY warning won't work -- people will just habituate. If people will habituate to BONGs then they'll habituate to CHIRPS. Same difference. In fact this argument proves that people would not only habituate to WOT's boxing gloves, but that there is no difference between an ICE and an electric vehicle because people will habituate to the sound of the engine running, rendering this ineffective as well. (Which undermines your whole argument that electrics are fundamentally different than ICEs).

BTW I understand you think you're making the product better. I just think we'll have to agree to disagree that you'd be making it better by implementing something like the BMW fob-in-slot. Again, I'll go back to the 8A/12A example. We have a few people who can't figure out the EVSE so everyone has to be inconvenienced every day so the challenged few will (eventually) be able to figure out how to charge the car. I don't see that as an improvement. Not an issue if you see this differently. Just a different way of weighing costs and benefits.

 

[CarZin]

I do not think alerts made by interior speakers in the car are appropriate. The use of the external horn is appropriate. It doesn't matter that the chirps are 76 DB when you exit the car. Its obvious they are used so much to the point that people often ignore them. The alerting needs to happen when the door is closed, and the key fob is no longer in the car. It needs to be done by a distinctive horn sequence. I don't think any of us will be getting out of the car, with it on, and closing the door with the key fob in hand, to hear the alarm enough to ignore it.

Now if you're saying that they're loud enough but this doesn't matter because people will become habituated to the BONGS, that's a classic case of an argument that doesn't hold because it proves to much. You can use this argument to claim that ANY warning won't work -- people will just habituate.

I don't agree, and based on my previous jobs working in an operations center monitoring systems, I have a lot of experience to back this up. You have to distinguish alerts so that items that are critical stand out. Interior chirps are heard all the time. Exterior horn is a different thing altogether, especially if it is in a sequence, or loud enough to make an impact. Part of the Volt's problem could be alerting too much, and using sequences that are too similar, conditioning people to ignore them.

I don't really need to prove my point. It is already proven. The alerts on the car as insufficient. While not scientific, the small sampling is enough for me.

But bottom line: A solution doesn't need to be 100%. If it goes 90% its good. At this point, any effort would be good. I'm convinced its only a matter of time before this hurts someone. The uniqueness of the Volts design makes itself more prone to these issues than other vehicles.

I'm done discussing it. I've said my piece. My mother was killed in a car accident, in a Toyota, that was very suspicious of a stuck accelerator. It was one of the affected models. I take design issues seriously. If it saves one life, and takes a few software developers to code some changes, then its worth it.

I've submitted my NHTSA complaint, and I recommend anyone that feels this is an issue to do the same thing. I guess we'll let the government decide.

 

[jeffhre]

Besides the existing warnings when the car is ON as you describe...
There is also a unique audio cue when the car is shut down (the cool spaceship power down tone)
Unfortuately many people eventually turn down these audio cues after the honeymoon is over, but these can provide important additional feedback that one can learn to anticipate and expect.

I don't dispute there might be something that can be done to improve the current behavior, but all I can say is the current configuration reflects a combination of federal regulations, historical baggage, and legal culability issues.
(ie if you do not follow the owners manual to shut down your car, whose fault is it??)
Still thinking the boxing glove might be the only infallible solution
WOT

Then you have the possibility of someone unconscious in a vehicle, in a confined space, with the ICE about to fire up...

 

[jeffhre]

Don,

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make a product better. I have already stated that a passive approach may be the best. This creates no harm for the pets or people, other than a little noise, and would remind a person as they exit the car and close the door that the car is still on. This makes all the concern about people overheating in cars moot.



Don, you don't need to be in the garage for CO to kill you. It can easily get into your home, and there are already cases where people have died as a result of this. I don't have to provide examples, because those examples are already in multiple links above.

That is clearly a very serious concern. So, once more I ask, please tell us how much CO to expect from a Volt running in a confined space. Let us know what your research reveals of the amount of carbon monoxide that accumulates from the Volts ULEV or AT- PZEV configurations.

 

[Electrons]

GM needs to include whether or not the car is powered on via status section on Remote Link. Seems like a simple programming upgrade to me.

We still can't get alerts to work... so don't expect any "simple" programming upgrades any time soon.

 

[sinnombre]

Last week I voted "No. This hasn't happened to me. " , but I think I need to change my vote . I'm pretty sure my wife left on the car on Saturday . When I got into the car and drove for a mile or two , I noticed her battery only yielded 26.6 miles and the fuel economy for the charge was 18 mpg for the generator portion .

Hmmm , I usually get 38-42 on battery and 37-43 mpg on the gen mode. What did she do to use so much energy ? Later I noticed the trip total was 56 miles . If I subtract the 2 miles I drove that left 54 miles . The battery died at 26.6 miles which is pretty darn close to 50 % of her round trip .

I think she must have left it on , ran the battery down and used another 3/4 gallon sitting in the parking lot , and a second 3/4 to get home . 27 miles/ 1.5 gallons .

Any thoughts on my theory ? Of course she denies everything .

 

[moshe_levy]

Much of this discussion sadly misses the main point - which is Murphy's Law. The FACT is, obviously, people leave this car on by accident. The second FACT is, this is easily blocked by any various means of software changes which are inexpensive to implement. And the final - and biggest FACT is - that if some poor sap leaves the car running in an enclosed garage and wipes out his family as they sleep, that the CAR and not the owner will get the blame once the media spin machine kicks into gear.

It won't matter how many alarms he ignored, or how scatterbrained he was - the drama of the consequences will overshadow that. And for what? Because you can't implement, say, a software change which, after a preset and very long amount of time on battery in Park, asks the owner to confirm ICE to kick on within 2 minutes, or ICE will not operate. Simple - cheap - effective, just like your computer "Are you SURE you want to delete this file?"

This car is too good - too well thought out - to be potentially sacrificed by what is obviously a design flaw. Semantics aside, it's only a matter of time before this happens, and if it does it will bring down this excellent car, and maybe GM with it. It would be the height of stupidity for the company not to implement a failsafe that is retroactive to install.

-MKL