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Loboc : Or is it EVRE now. Things change so fast ya can’t keep up sometimes.
+1 for this truism. Just a few years ago Qualcomm concluded that smartphones would never exceed 10% of the cellphone market. Oops! LOL And that's a company which is a in the industry and that's not so long ago.
 
stuart22 ,

One could argue that both Stuart and Texas are way off. I would argue that for each EV that Better Place is servicing they need three or more batteries. Maybe once they get a great deal of market coverage then they will be able to have less than 2 to 1 coverage, but at startup time you need more like ten to 1, unless of course the coverage area is so restricted that no-one would use it. I would not call BP a scam, but it surely is not a slam dunk to make it work. And it would work much more in their favor if all cars had compatible batteries. And maybe multiple smaller batteries so that the swap is not an all or nothing swap. (Half a tank sir).
 
#58 Loboc It was the small leak of acid through the venting that caused corrosion.

Exactly right, and I believe they will discover what causes the crystalization problem and make the change to greatly improve the life of current Li-ion batteries as well.
 
JohnK : So Lyle, how did you do in the marathon?    
3:46, thanks for asking.

I told GM marketing several times last year and 2 years ago they should get the Volt to be the sponsored car for the ING NYC Marathon. They blew off the idea.

Guess which car sponsored the event, was the official pace car, and was shown off to the 45,000 runners at the Expo? ...the Nissan LEAF.
 
Jim I : This is interesting technology, but I think the used rejuvenated batteries will find more of a home in secondary applications.
After all, how long does the average person keep a car? I know that where I live, most people are changing vehicles about every five years or so. I keep mine for eight to ten, and that is considered to be a long time.
And even with a refreshed battery pack, how many other things are starting to wear out, and the body starting to rust through???
When I buy a new car, I want a new battery pack, not a ten year old refurb………

What it does is support the value of used BEVs, whats the point of buying a 10 year old Volt if you know the battery is pretty much dead?.. now perhaps for $500 you can get it refreshed. It also allows GM to use a smaller battery and not coddle it so much.
 
JohnK : #comment-244703 ,
One could argue that both Stuart and Texas are way off.I would argue that for each EV that Better Place is servicing they need three or more batteries.Maybe once they get a great deal of market coverage then they will be able to have less than 2 to 1 coverage, but at startup time you need more like ten to 1, unless of course the coverage area is so restricted that no-one would use it.I would not call BP a scam, but it surely is not a slam dunk to make it work.And it would work much more in their favor if all cars had compatible batteries.And maybe multiple smaller batteries so that the swap is not an all or nothing swap. (Half a tank sir).    


Yes I was way off - the numbers are far worse than I suggested. The more you look at it, the more unlikely the Better Place idea can work. Where is BP going to get the $$$ to buy all those batteries? No - it is not a scam -- it is just an idea that has too many leaky holes to fill.

It falls into the same category as the Maginot Line in concept. Aside from the astronomical costs, it's way too static of an approach to be workable. As you have figured out, swap stations would have to inventory large stocks of batteries just to be able to satisfactorily serve a highly mobile and unpredictable clientele. Periodic shortages are bound to happen at each swap station - not good.

And what's going to happen with all those expensive batteries after the next big battery breakthrough renders them obsolete? Bankruptcy? Bailout?
 
So a good question is do Li-Ion batteries degrade more so than Nickel Cadmium? The reason I ask is that we own the first gen Prius and its now going on 10 years old. So far the battery seems to be doing fine. If I could get another 5 years out of the car I'd be happy. But if such an option was available for a Volt assuming I'd also keep it for 10-15 years, I'd probably want the procedure to be inexpensive as by the time I'd need it the car would be approaching old age. Its also key to remember that the Volt also has a conventional engine under the hood which like all engines will have potential problems from wear.

Otherwise- bravo to GM! Great for them to be so forward thinking!
 
Lyle, post #64 : JohnK: So Lyle, how did you do in the marathon?

Lyle: 3:46, thanks for asking.

I told GM marketing several times last year and 2 years ago they should get the Volt to be the sponsored car for the ING NYC Marathon. They blew off the idea.

Guess which car sponsored the event, was the official pace car, and was shown off to the 45,000 runners at the Expo? …the Nissan LEAF.

ATTN GM MKTG: "I told GM marketing several times last year and 2 years ago they should get the Volt to be the sponsored car for the ING NYC Marathon. They blew off the idea."

"Guess which car sponsored the event, was the official pace car, and was shown off to the 45,000 runners at the Expo? …the Nissan LEAF."


GM MKTG is acting like the OLD GM ...the "we're smarter than you" company! C'mon, GM! LISTEN, for crying out loud! You've promised to build the best cars in the world from now on ---but HOW CAN YOU KNOW WHAT CONSUMERS CONSIDER TO BE "BEST" WITHOUT LISTENING?!?!

/Great run, Lyle ---26.3 mi w/o using a drop of gas! :)
 
jscott1 : This cell rejuvenation process is not something that is going to be feasible in the field any time soon in my opinion. Battery cell technology requires a high integrity seal to keep out contaminants and maintain a certain amount of pressure. If you were to install valves to make it easy to flush electrolyte now you have a leak path.

The pouch cells are actually in a vacuum.. similar to a vacuum sealed steak in a plastic bag.. the reason they do this is so that atmospheric pressure can press the laminations of the lithium-ion battery together, otherwise the layers lose contact with each other and ion exchange gets harder. In a cylindrical or prismatic cells the case itself provides mechanical pressure to the laminations so the cell can be at neutral pressure, even vented if anyone needed that.

The electrolyte is not corrosive or even necessarily poisonous, but its not cheap. Wang from BYD did a famous demonstration in which he drank electrolyte from his batteries.. probably cured his constipation real quick :)

I dont think leakage is big issue, after all this not something that will be done very often.. probably every 5-10 years or so, a couple of times.. no one is going to keep using the same batteries for 20 years. It will be very beneficial for commercial users like delivery vehicles, trucks and taxis.
 
JUST TO BE SURE GM GOT MY LAST POST:
nasaman : GM MKTG is acting like the OLD GM …the “we’re smarter than you” company! C’mon, GM! LISTEN, for crying out loud! You’ve promised to build the best cars in the world from now on —but HOW CAN YOU KNOW WHAT CONSUMERS CONSIDER TO BE “BEST” WITHOUT LISTENING?!?!

Hey, does it sound like I'm angry? IT SHOULD! BECAUSE I AM! You, GM, are using my money, my children's money and my grandchildren's money. Money borrowed from the US taxpayer for who knows how long ---SO START LISTENING!!!!
 
stuart22 : The economics of battery swapping don’t support an independent business such as Better Place ‘owning’ the batteries. Given a battery cost of $5000 and a population of only 100,000 EVs, BP’s investment in batteries alone would be half a billion dollars – and that’s not including the hundreds of millions needed for infrastructure creation costs.

They plan to lease the batteries by the minute of driving time, similar to cell phone plans, in places where gas is very expensive. 100k batteries, at $150 a month for 3 years is $540 million.. and the batteries will probably last longer and have a secondary usage once they are retired. They will also make money providing services to the utilities companies with their extra batteries.

There will be relatively few swapping stations, the vast majority of these batteries will be recharged in the normal way.. slowly, overnight and while installed in the car. Hard to say if they will succeed, it depends on lots of people having range anxiety.
 
I would expect that GM would follow the Apple method for refurbished batteries using this method.

1. Show up at dealership, workers replace your worn-out battery with a previously refurbished, tested, sealed up battery pack. You're out the door in under two hours, for $2500 or whatever they end up charging.
2. They take yours to be sent off on a truck to be refurbished at a central plant.
3. Someone somewhere else gets your old battery pack.

At the central plant, they can refurbish all the cells, pick out bad ones out of the pack and consolidate packs (if 1 in 100 cells are irrevocably bad, then 100 packs become 99 after the bad ones have been removed), update any software in the pack, test the pack and make sure its good (both the cells, the heating/cooling systems, etc).

I'm really interested to see what the recovery rate would be - if after 8 years they've degraded to 70% and you're using almost 100% of the pack to get 25-50 miles EV, can they get it back up to 90%? 95%? 100%? 100% seems almost too go to be true. I figure it has to be something closer to 95%, which is fine if it lasts another 7-8 years. Fifteen years or more out of a battery pack would go a long way to improving the ROI on these cars over gasoline, especially if the battery can be refurbished more than once (and at that point, probably put into stationary, secondary use applications like backing up the power grid).

It wouldn't be an oil change style visit simply because the plumbing to do that in place would be really cost inefficient if you only have to do it once every 8-10 years. It is, like I mentioned above, getting the battery in your iPod changed (which in reality, they're just giving you a refurbed iPod).
 
Anthony ,

The only problem I see with your analysis is that $2,500 is a lot of money to most people when it comes to car repairs. $2,500 will usually get you a refurbished engine in most econo cars and at that point most people will sell or junk the car even though it actually makes more economic sense to replace the engine instead of blowing $25k on a new car. Thus I can't imagine people acting any different when it comes to battery replacement/refurbishment. Perhaps the Volt is different and those who own them won't mind spending the money on a new battery.

This proposition from GM makes it sounds more like an oil change or tranny flush. That would probably seem more appealing to the consumer versus the idea of having to replace the unit entirely.
 
If Project Better Place actually had swapping stations everywhere, that would make me more inclined to buy a BEV. But what would also help, is just a second battery at home I could swap myself.

Yes, this would be expensive at this time. Yes, it would require automation or a lift assist to swap a 400lb battery. But it seems like a stepping stone in battery swapping technology. If my 30Kwh battery takes 24 hours to charge, then I want 2 of them, so when I get home, I can swap in 10 minutes, and be on my way.

Until this happens (or I'll throw in fast-charging), EREV is the way to go for the most driving freedom.
 
My ballpark estimate for a battery refurb would be $500. There's not really any new materials (just solvent & electrolyte). Basically its just the time, and it looks like it can be done in just over an hour. If GM can design the battery so it can be refurbed while its still in the car, that would save a lot of time/effort.

How much will the battery pack design cost go up to allow for a future refurb? Check valves, manifolds, etc? Is LG on board with this?
 
Lyle :
3:46, thanks for asking.I told GM marketing several times last year and 2 years ago they should get the Volt to be the sponsored car for the ING NYC Marathon.They blew off the idea.Guess which car sponsored the event, was the official pace car, and was shown off to the 45,000 runners at the Expo? …the Nissan LEAF.    

Great job, Lyle. I have yet to break 4 hours in a marathon( 4:07 best); its tough. Thats a nice time.

And, Yes, I saw the LEAF dribbling along, always in the back ground of the TV coverage of the lead pack ladies. I thought the same thing; why wasn't a Volt there instead?
 
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