[ClarksonCote]

Tagamet : I nominate Lyle’s Place, anytime after he gets his CAB Volt (wink). Now *THERE’S* a situation in need of heavy security!Be well,Tagamet   (Quote)    (Reply)

LOL... works for me!

join thE REVolution

 

[bonaire]

Eco_Turbo : Nice for this news to come after yesterday’s mention of LMPs, that might have left some thinking GM was barking up the wrong tree on battery type.   (Quote)    (Reply)

I read up on LMP tech since yesterday's post. Looks like they are actually growing and have been around a while. Companies in China appear to use the battery for busses, cars, etc. If that kind of technology would also allow for ease of refurbishing, that would be good.

I have to think that oil is one commodity that has limited capacity - how about Lithium? It's a rare earth material and probably does not have unlimited supply either. Lithium, if over-mined, could indeed be of a limited supply and since China is a big supplier of Lithium - do we now need to start pushing to get Lithium mined out in Utah or down in South America where it is pleantiful? Bolivia the new Saudi Arabia?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1166387/In-search-Lithium-The-battle-3rd-element.html

 

[nhern202]

Hummm...how much money would I be willing to pay to get my 8 year old cars battery rejuvenated?
$1,000 ?
$2,000 ?
$3,000 ?
Sounds like the making of a good a poll question.

NPNS!

 

[stuart22]

Texas : What about the swap out approach? Just swap in a rejuvenated pack and send the worn out pack to the refurbishing plant.Also, Better Place will also be interested in this because they own the battery and can simply reuse the rejuvenated battery pack in their vehicles until it’s no longer economically feasible to do so.    

The economics of battery swapping don't support an independent business such as Better Place 'owning' the batteries. Given a battery cost of $5000 and a population of only 100,000 EVs, BP's investment in batteries alone would be half a billion dollars - and that's not including the hundreds of millions needed for infrastructure creation costs.

The more one looks at the Better Place idea, the less realistic of a solution it appears to be.

 

[jscott1000]

This cell rejuvenation process is not something that is going to be feasible in the field any time soon in my opinion. Battery cell technology requires a high integrity seal to keep out contaminants and maintain a certain amount of pressure. If you were to install valves to make it easy to flush electrolyte now you have a leak path.

This procedure sounds like something you would only be able to do at the end of life, and the rejuvenated cell would not be as good as the original. So at best this makes for a good secondary use for the cell after it's days in the Volt are finished.

It's easy to patent an original idea as something new and interesting. It's quite another to actually build it as a practical device. This idea might not be the least bit practical.

So for those envisioning a fast charging station with new electrolyte flushed in while you get some coffee... I don't foresee that happening soon if ever.

 

[BLIND GUY]

A whole new battery pack design would need to be done IMO to have this process done efficiently and practical. Another possibility might be to find the right combination of materials that would not result in the crystalization biproduct which degrades the cells in the first place. Lead acid batteries use to get the crud build-up on the post, now they have made improvements to prevent this chemical reaction and hopefully the same kind of improvement can be found with Li-ion batteries.

 

[Texas1]

stuart22 :
The economics of battery swapping don’t support an independent business such as Better Place ‘owning’ the batteries.Given a battery cost of $5000 and a population of only 100,000 EVs, BP’s investment in batteries alone would be half a billion dollars – and that’s not including the hundreds of millions needed for infrastructure creation costs.The more one looks at the Better Place idea, the less realistic of a solution it appears to be.    

Your math is a bit off. Are you telling us that your calculations show a huge flaw in Better Places' business plan that escaped the last round of financing by the "Big Boys" that netted Better Place another couple of hundred million dollars?

Please, enlighten us with your financial acumen.

 

[Jim I]

This is interesting technology, but I think the used rejuvenated batteries will find more of a home in secondary applications.

After all, how long does the average person keep a car? I know that where I live, most people are changing vehicles about every five years or so. I keep mine for eight to ten, and that is considered to be a long time.

And even with a refreshed battery pack, how many other things are starting to wear out, and the body starting to rust through???

When I buy a new car, I want a new battery pack, not a ten year old refurb.........

JMHO

NPNS

Have Outlet - Ready For EREV In Ohio!

 

[Loboc]

jscott1 : I don’t foresee that happening soon if ever.
Um... didja foresee GM making an EREV vehicle when you were forecasting way back in 2006?

Or is it EVRE now. Things change so fast ya can't keep up sometimes.

never say never.

 

[Tall Pete]

Tom : Has anyone ever found it possible to rejuvenate standard lead acid batteries that actually works?Tom   (Quote)    (Reply)
Since new batteries were so cheap, was it worth the trouble to rejuvenate these ?

 

[Loboc]

Jim I : And even with a refreshed battery pack, how many other things are starting to wear out, and the body starting to rust through???
That's a consideration.

My brother is a owner-operator truck driver. He replaces his driver's seat and windshield more than any other parts. His truck has over 2million miles on it. His last one was worn out after only 1,750,000 miles. But the guy he sold it to is still driving it.

Some people can keep the same car for a decade or so. I'm not one of them.

 

[Starcast]

Battery warranty? What is the warranty? Not how long but what is the battery warranty for? When is a battery replaced? Is the warranty only for total breakdown? If a battery has 50% of a new one will it be replaced? 70%? 40% 10% What is the warranty? I hear 8yr 100K miles but what is covered?

Is this the same on the Volt and the leaf?

 

[bboaze]

Man, I'll be glad when we can look at how some things worked out, instead of always predicting about things that are always a couple years away or more.

 

[Grumpa]

Matthew B :
I doubt it.The wear out mechanism is for the positive plate material to fall to the bottom of the cell.    
Actually, it is positive grid corrosion that is the primary failure mode. Positive plate material fallout is not much of a problem anymore with modern separator technology. So, no it is not really feasible to rejuvenate lead acid batteries.

 

[Tall Pete]

tom w : Actually all improvements to battery costs, lifespans and storage per weight moves the demand from EREVs to BEVs.
Two other factors to consider : a) charging infrastructure and b) how long it takes to recharge the battery.

As long as it takes at least half an hour to recharge a BEV, and several hours at home, EREV is justified. I'm not even mentionning the absence of a solid charging infrastucture for at least a decade or two.

 

[stuart22]

Texas :
Your math is a bit off. Are you telling us that your calculations show a huge flaw in Better Places’ business plan that escaped the last round of financing by the “Big Boys” that netted Better Place another couple of hundred million dollars?Please, enlighten us with your financial acumen.    

Ok, smart ass - why don't YOU show some numbers that show how feasible an idea battery swapping will be.

And as EVs need to 'refuel' more often than a typical gasoline car, are there going to be enough swapping stations available, or will there be lines of cars waiting to get service?

How many battery swapping stations are going to be built, and when will it happen? And how many EV's can one of these stations handle at any given time? A standard gasoline station can handle 8 to 12 cars at once. Is Better Place ready to provide that level of available service?

As I said, the closer one looks at the BP idea, the less likely it appears to be a solution. If I am wrong, please state your case.

 

[Tall Pete]

Mark Z : Just pray that the oil industry doesn’t buyout the process and keep it from happening.

As long as GM is own by the government, it should be fine. Private interests and the good of the people are sometimes two different things.

 

[Tom W]

jscott1 : So for those envisioning a fast charging station with new electrolyte flushed in while you get some coffee… I don’t foresee that happening soon if ever.

It doesn't have to happen that soon, as there won't be any significant quantity of batteries needing refurbishing for at least 5-8 years. It's the fact that in a couple years they might be designing batteries to allow easy rejuvination. Rejuvination is as important as lowering costs and weight of these batteries because that not only adds life to the batteries but also addresses concerns of displosal, limited resources to build millions of batteries etc.

Rejuvination can be a very big deal and I'm sure lots of resources will go into this area.

Perhaps another interesting poll would be, which EV enabling technology will see the greatest breakthroughs in the next 3-5 years.
1) Weight and Power density of batteries
2) Cost of batteries (total manufactured cost)
3) Rejuvination of degraded batteries
4) Availability of Charging stations

 

[JohnK]

So Lyle, how did you do in the marathon?

 

[Loboc]

BLIND GUY : Lead acid batteries use to get the crud build-up on the post, now they have made improvements to prevent this chemical reaction
Older lead-acid batteries were truly made of lead (not antimony/lead alloy) and were not sealed. They could not be sealed because the charging process caused hydrogen gas build-up that had to be vented. Newer batteries do not have this build-up and can be sealed. Some are even gel electrolyte, not watery acid.

It was the small leak of acid through the venting that caused corrosion. Now you can mount them in the trunk with no problems.