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john1701a :
Loboc ,


What is causing the delay of Voltec rollout to a SUV model ?
Why do you assume there is some delay?

What is Toyota's PHEV SUV offering?
 
Scroll down the page and see how Workhorse (http://workhorse.com/pickup/) is building the exact equivalent of the Volt.

I see no reason GM can't drop the existing Voltec drive under the hood of their popular Pickup truck, add an extra 130HP of electric rear-wheel drive, and up the battery pack to 60kWh. 80 miles AER, serious towing capacity, and more ICE power than BMW unit Workhorse is using...

If a small specialty company can do it, then GM certainly can.
 
john1701a : GM’s ability to deliver quickly was the topic being discussed. The question was asked about Voltec rollout. Was your abrupt change of focus over to BEV offerings an indication GM is abandoning plug-in hybrid in favor of electric-only ?
If not, why no answer about a Voltec SUV ?
John, don't you recognize your own modus operandi? Gotta look in the mirror, Jack!
 
Loboc : Why do you assume there is some delay?

Expectations were set and the precedent established. Not having delivered at this point is a delay. Other automakers are now moving to fill in that gap. We see the hybrid SUVs paving the way for the plug-in models.

Don't forget about audience either. GM's customer base is far more interested in SUVs than other automakers, who sell far more small & midsize cars.

Also, don't forget about the limited number of tax-credits remaining. This topic of "future" depends upon making the best of the situation at hand, rather than letting opportunity slip away.
 
Schmeltz : Many of us here at this site have been requesting a larger sedan, or a crossover, or an EV pick-up for years now.Yet GM seems mostly complacent, and in no-hurry to go deeper and further into EV’s.

Remember Two-Mode? Start with the largest work vehicles, then scale down with the next generation to deliver something small & sporty. Volt was the next, addressing exactly that. Now, we want the middle to be addressed... the size that is "just right" for a majority of GM customers.

Why no advancement in any foreseeable future? Why rest on their laurels after working so hard to prove the technology? There is no requirement to deliver a fast & powerful system with a huge battery-pack. Why not something between the two on the way?
 
ParkTalk :
Scroll down the page and see how Workhorse ( http://workhorse.com/pickup/ ) is building the exact equivalent of the Volt.


I see no reason GM can’t drop the existing Voltec drive under the hood of their popular Pickup truck, add an extra 130HP of electric rear-wheel drive, and up the battery pack to 60kWh.80 miles AER, serious towing capacity, and more ICE power than BMW unit Workhorse is using…

If a small specialty company can do it, then GM certainly can.

A commercial business owner and accounting team would not consider moving to this product without detailed testing data regarding duty cycles, fixed / variable costs, support / maintenance network etc.).

There is a reason Sprinter and Promaster have a large chunk of business customers. A revenue generating company will look at the potential depreciation schedule and volume pricing they will get per unit purchased. This company could never sale at the volume pricing currently received from the big players in the market.

AMP purchased the Workhorse name to give them market credibility but they have zero long-term commercial credibility. AMP Electric Vehicles was established in 2007 as a developmental-stage vehicle electrification company. We first experimented with adding battery-electric power to two-seat roadsters.

Seriously folks, large companies pay folks to not make foolish purchasing decisions based on the latest shiny objects.
 
john1701a : Remember Two-Mode?Start with the largest work vehicles, then scale down with the next generation to deliver something small & sporty.Volt was the next, addressing exactly that.Now, we want the middle to be addressed… the size that is “just right” for a majority of GM customers.

Why no advancement in any foreseeable future?Why rest on their laurels after working so hard to prove the technology?There is no requirement to deliver a fast & powerful system with a huge battery-pack.Why not something between the two on the way?

Just because a technology is viable does not automatically mean a company should race to commercialize it. Maybe you should send your thoughts to the GM Board of Directors and explain why you think Mary Barra is being too 'gun-shy' on Voltec and your vision of the future will save GM from decline.

Based on your logic GM should send her packing...... Good luck with that...
 
MotoBCT : ust because a technology is viable does not automatically mean...

That statement is either ironic or hypocritical, depending upon your perspective. How about we choose to identify it as a move on GM's part to avoid repeating the "over promise, under deliver" problem. That kind of progress is good for everyone.

Unfortunately, it still leaves us without a plan. Any thoughts on what could be next?
 
Schmeltz :
Does anyone else notice that whenever there are “Cars of the Future”, they are almost always these tiny little electric, self driving pod-things.The assumption I guess is that no one outside of cities will drive cars.I don’t think there will be as many of these pod cars as people think.


Here’s one thing I like about Elon Musk…He really wants to make an Electric Pick-up.Maybe even moreso, it seems he wants no compromise, all electric, mainstream vehicles.I agree with him on that end.I would like to see a future where average people that may live in a suburb or rural area driving a generous sized electric crossover or pick-up or van or whatever.If you want a pod, by all means get a pod.But for me, I want an electric truck.
My thoughts exactly. Who cares about these pod things.
 
MotoBCT : Can you contact you friends at Toyoda and ask what is causing the delay of a full BEV from their company?For such a large company it seems like they could use some development help from Tesla to speed this up.


Better yet, maybe Hyundai can show Toyoda the way forward in the 21st century.
Touche!

Hey John,
I was in Riverside Toyota getting service on the Prius and there were tons of new shiny Toyotas for sale. Guess how many Prius Primes there were......zero.

They were an hour late getting my car done and they returned with grease on the drivers side door mat. I had to call up and complain about it.
 
john1701a : Expectations were set and the precedent established. Not having delivered at this point is a delay. Other automakers are now moving to fill in that gap. We see the hybrid SUVs paving the way for the plug-in models.

Lol. Have you even been reading this site's forum? Ever hear of an XT3 SUV? Spotted in the wild with a charge port.
 
MotoEV : How much are you willing to pay for this no compromise vehicle at retail?$85K OTD. The problem is many consumers want an $85K to build plugin SUV for $65K. What do you suggest GM to do?
Why do you assume a plug in SUV would be so horrendously expensive?

FCA Chrysler has priced Pacifica Hybrid at $41,999. Even before the tax credit, that
is one screaming deal!

Mitsubishi's Outlander PHEV is the best selling electrified vehicle in some European
countries. Perhaps the main reason the troubled, recently sold off company
hasn't sold it across the pond in our capital of SUV fandom is that it plain makes
the gas version look bad.

If your electric makes your gas models look bad, why rock your big profit
boat by selling both? Soon, ALL your gassers will need some sort of
electric drive to just not look obsolete.

Then there's the parts and service problem. That is a huge one for legacy
carmakers. EVs just need less attention and few parts. Losses in brake
rotors and pads alone would cost them hundreds of $millions.

MPV5 was a GM concept shown in Shanghai which proved Volt's platform
works very well as a 5 passenger crossover SUV, stretch it for a 3 row
configuration. The taller shape makes 3 across seating a breeze.

The sentence, "when the market is right" truly means - if Tesla or Hyundai
forces the issue by introducing a successful SUV at a mainstream price.

Until somebody does, expect low volume niche electric products that don't
directly compete in GM's established vehicle categories.
 
Went to the GM Dealer. Tahoe's, Suburban's, and Escalades... High end trim line ones in the $80k - $100k+ range...

Someone is buying them or they wouldn't be building them. Denali Pickups are the in the $60 - $70k range as well. $70k+ if they have a diesel motor.

In high numbers what do the batteries and electric motors add to the bottom line cost? Of course you can take out that 6.2L V8 gas motor and put a more modest V6 back in. Maybe even V4 - turbo to charge the packs up.

Here is what is costing all the traditional manufacturers and will make them change. Tesla. GM's Tesla fighter is the bolt, but once Tesla gets rolling with their SUV and then pickup truck, things could get interesting for them. I do believe that GM (and the others) have a back warehouse plan to roll out different models when the need to arises.
 
"If it aint broke, don't fix it".

GM's profits are up, sales are strong, and every single manufacturer smells
blood in the water and is going in for the kill - profit-wise in the SUV-O-RAMA.

Sheesh, man - I saw what Toyota is doing in the SUV realm - they just came
out with a 2 door "sport CUV" built on the RAV4 platform...A "racy" body
on a SUV? This is their market research gone wild - a CUV for single millennials?!

Toyota is as bad ( or worse, look how they shamelessly tout fuel cells as
"the future"! ) as anyone else in the ICE industry. While John will SHOUT that
the Prius family is a runaway success - the Prius V sales are lousy. Prius C sales
are not brisk, and the Prius Hybrid is the original foundation product of the
three that literally keeps the other models afloat. You see, at the lowest
pricepoint of the C, the more price-friendly gas models are a more attractive
buy to the economy buyer, and the Prius V, while a compelling product, in my
eyes, is not "SUV ENOUGH" for that brainwashed crossover buyer - which
is, sadly, the bulk of SUV buyers out there. Toyota made Prius and didn't fear
that it would conflict with it's Corolla buyer - because it's a higher-income
person that buys a Prius, which MSRPs far beyond a relatively well-equipped
Corolla gasser. This makes Prius a new niche - a high volume niche product
that doesn't compete with other Toyota sedans!

This is the trick. GM has CAREFULLY planned Bolt EV to not compete with it's
gas products. The 30,000 or so they'll sell each year are to people who
come into the dealership looking for an EV. They know when they get there
what they are there for - to buy an electric car.

Volt is the same. Volt has no competitor, as much as John wants to tout the
Prime. Those two cars split very small niche into an even smaller one. People
who want a commuter car with great MPG and high tech who are willing to
pay for the savings up front. Prime for the travelling salesman or guy with
a 90 mile commute, or maybe fleet drivers. Volt for everyone else - which
includes us geeks who love tech and are willing to pay for it. Without a
Cruze back seat, and unable to compete pricewise with Cruze - it's a niche
product that doesn't compete at all with other GM products.

So nicely do these ICE companies plan their sales strategies huh?

I love watching the market moves companies make to try to one-up each other.
Ford, the perennial leader in large trucks, makes a move, GM counters.
Prius has owned the MPG niche group of hybrids, and Honda counters. Honda
saw that Prius buyers paid a premium for their hybrid, so they opted to shoot
a shot at Toyota and Insight was born. Insight, a cheap, plasticky immitation
Prius with a cheaper hybrid drivetrain. It bombed. Now Hyundai enters that
niche market with Ioniq and that will be a very interesting market niche battle
to watch indeed. Hyundai's new Prius fighter is better looking and in some ways
more sensible. It's simpler drivetrain may mean more profit margin for Hyundai
for each car sold. Hyundai claims more MPG than Prius Eco also. Hyundai also
made it very interesting by adding a PHEV and a BEV into the Ioniq mix.

My prediction is: It may be like all the world who tries and tries to dethrone the BMW 3 Series.
It’s become a matter of pride for Audi, Toyota ( Lexus ), Mercedes and Cadillac to topple the top-selling 3 Series. Generation after generation they fail. First, like Toyota ( See John ), BMW has a core of BMW BELIEVERS who buy into their mantra of performance, and are brainwashed that no other car could compare. Second, BMW got the head start and can keep those customers by putting out a good product, or AS GOOD as the newer competitors. Sometimes BMW has fallen short, but BMW devotees buy the Kool-Aid and keep on buying Beemer. Their foes have tried different angles, just like Prius fighters have – to win the day. They go for that budget 3 Series wannabe buyer, they go for a more luxury 3 Series-type car…They shoot high, they shoot low, but they never even come close to toppling the car that established the category.



Problem is: Prius’ command of the compact hybrid category isn’t so significant anymore because the sales are drying up. So Ioniq and Volt are fighting Prius for an even smaller piece of an even smaller pie.



John is a case in point of fanboyism. Even though Toyota has shown it is
just as vulnerable to recalls, failures and quality mess ups as any other car
company, that message of "The Toyota Way" and high quality hooked him
early and he's hooked for life. Toyota could build an ATOM BOMB on wheels
and he'd buy it, and argue for it. Even after Akio Toyoda, Toyota CEO fell on
a sword in front of the U.S. Congressional hearing on Toyota's woes, and said,
"Toyota has lost it's WAY!" ( and wept ) - John boy keeps on believing Toyota
is a superior car company to all others.

So be it.
 
Loboc : Lol. Have you even been reading this site’s forum? Ever hear of an XT3 SUV? Spotted in the wild with a charge port.
Yet it's problematic that GM feels an electrified model must be sold as it's
luxury premier brand.

CT6 PHEV is a sales disaster. And why shouldn't it be? It's a nice piece,
but made in China still has issues in our domestic market, especially
for such an expensive car. In this environment with cheap oil, it's an easy
bet CT6 PHEV was a flop for our market from the outset.

So along comes XT3 PHEV or whatever Cadillac with a plug. Just like ELR,
they'll fall flat on their face, lest we have gas price hikes due to war in
the Middle East or some other unforeseen event. With EPA and possibly
even C.A.R.B. out of the way - luxo cars with plugs are dinosaurs before
they ever get to the showroom.

The way it looks as of today - Volt gen 2 will be the last Volt. Bolt EV will
soldier on as GM's green car. Malibu Hybrid is weak and may get the axe
and GM, like Dakster says, probably having SUVs and sedans with plugs
totally or partially developed and in a holding pattern may never see the
light of the showroom floor day.

I feel GM is totally looking at Tesla as a possible threat, and to that, they
have confidence that Tesla will fail to make a dent in their sales. If the
Model 3 takes off and a Model Y (4?) crossover is next - Look to GM and
all others to respond - the MSRP range for that crossover? $40-55,000?
Maybe a Buick, maybe a Cadillac...

partially developed
 
James : While John will SHOUT that
the Prius family is a runaway success – the Prius V sales are lousy. Prius C sales
are not brisk, and the Prius Hybrid is the original foundation product of the
three that literally keeps the other models afloat.

Who are you talking about? Not me. I have been pointing Toyota's effort to introduce replacement choices for years now. They ended up delivering RAV4 hybrid a year ago and sales have been strong. In the fall, rollout of C-HR hybrid begins in Europe and the new Camry hybrid here. I have also been pointing out how easily they will accommodate a plug-in option, as Prius Prime clearly demonstrates.

The other thing I have been saying is attention must be paid to the SHOWROOM FLOOR. Efforts here to divert attention away from GM's problem with losses at dealerships due to having nothing of interest for GM's own loyal customers are obvious. They just kept buying traditional vehicles because no hybrid or plug-in model of their favorite vehicle is offered.
 
Naturally, I'm talking about the domestic market.

PHEVs in the luxo brands are a reality that will stay.

The Europeans with their No-Emissions Zones and
stiffer laws will keep those Beemers and Audis with
plugs ( 15-20 mile E-range ) coming down the line.
 
James :
Naturally, I’m talking about the domestic market.


PHEVs in the luxo brands are a reality that will stay.


The Europeans with their No-Emissions Zones and
stiffer laws will keep those Beemers and Audis with
plugs ( 15-20 mile E-range ) coming down the line.
So what's your take on Trumpcare now that you have had time to study it.
 
George S. Bower : So what’s your take on Trumpcare now that you have had time to study it.

TrumpCare is like Trump University, only this time you die...

---

Only having Luxo brands in the plug in market are not going to cut it. I know WHY they are there as there is room to absorb some of the cost, but isn't what we really need/want is the masses going plug in? Bolt is a good start, Tesla's Model 3 another...

Sad that we are saying we need a war to move eco friendly and cheap transportation forward.

We are bound to have a pull back in hybrids due to the EPA being eliminated as well as MPG standards rolled back. As the only way auto manufactures can make CAFE is with hybrids. Compliance car or not, the compliance should mandate that they are sold in all 50 states at the Fed level.
 
James :
Toyota could build an ATOM BOMB on wheels
and he’d buy it, and argue for it. Even after Akio Toyoda, Toyota CEO fell on
a sword in front of the U.S. Congressional hearing on Toyota’s woes, and said,
“Toyota has lost it’s WAY!” ( and wept ) – John boy keeps on believing Toyota
is a superior car company to all others.

An Atom Bomb On Wheels.... That made my morning
 
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