[Melvin1]

nasaman :
An excellent topic to start this “July 4th” week off, Jeff! Having aggressively test driven Volts twice and found them both to have superb handling, I would expect the ELR to have phenomenal handling (at the rear-drive BMW M3 # level or even better?)
Very much wishful thinking to think an ELR or Volt could handle as well as a BMW 3
Series, let alone an M3. The BMW is rear wheel drive, which is absolutely superior
in every way to a front-drive vehicle albeit for snow. We don't see fwd F1 cars, Le Mans
cars or Indy cars - No fwd NASCARS, nor production sports cars, etc., etc., etc. All
Wheel Drive is an option, yet the tradeoffs are still scrubbing of the front tires,
ala: Quattro Audis, and indeed the added weight and complexity. The Volt is no
performance car - thus, the talk of an SS version usually stymies me. Perhaps
a gentleman's sporty version ( RS Rallye Sport ) for example would be nice.

This is how I see ELR's suspension setup. It takes the Volt, which handles admirably
better than, say a Prius due to it's weight and central and aft battery pack - and
ups the ante a bit - which it has to do for a lofty sum of $60,000 and up. I still
don't see any viability of ELR. True - some Volt owners here fit the bill for ELR's
envisioned demographic - retired, no race driver, but golfs and has a disposable
income allowing for some expensive toys. ELR is in zero way practical, seating
2 1/2. ELR won't out-handle anything much out there in it's price range. It's just
too heavy and fwd.

So no corner carver, but a more confident ride for those folks who are afraid
a Model S will leave them stranded. Are there many of those folks? No, not many.
Two Superchargers in my state by mid-summer. And every one that goes up
is a nail in ELR's very limited production coffin.

The Model S's skateboard platform makes it a much more likely candidate to
outrun BMWs, AMG Mercedes, Audis and Panameras. I can foresee a skateboard
chassis EV with in-wheel awd motors really tearing up the Nurburgring in Germany
and setting record times for a sedan or coupe. Low center of gravity is key - and
the battery weight, if a lower profile than Volt or ELRs would do it justice.

I just wouldn't trade my Volt straight across for an ELR - but to sell it and buy
another Volt and pocket the difference. There is a chance ELR could become
a collector's item, and for that - the investment, while a longshot ( Caddy's
other debacles are not collectible - XLR or Allante, etc. ) so if one is up to
take that chance - I could see the cash layout.

Only a bigtime Volt-GM fan would buy an ELR. There's just not very many
of that guy out there. Maybe hundreds? A couple hundred? Maybe?

In one way, I can see GM using ELR to plan 2nd gen Volt. Give Volt a bit
tidier handling, steering wheel paddle, adj regen and a tad bit more
usable center stack and infotainment. Those are not the big priorities for
2nd gen Volt so ELR still leaves me scratching my head.

RECHARGE!,

James

 

[Melvin1]

One way to understand why ELR is such a question mark is to do the old
Thomas Jefferson list we were taught to do whilst analyzing a decision.

On one side of a piece of paper, write ELR, then divide the page in two - on
the other side, jot Model S 60kwh.

Jefferson would use this tactic to determine which path to take when pondering
choices between options.

So list all the pros of owning an ELR - the car's seating capacity, storage capacity,
handling capabilities in g's, etc.. Then do the same for the Tesla. After a few
minutes - just the thought of opting for ELR may seem outright silly. It's slower,
handles much more poorly, seats 2 1/2, has questionable resale value and on
and on. It may even cost as much or more! Being a Cadillac, you're buying
that off-the-shelf econo ECOTEC 1.4L caste-iron block 4 cyl.. Now to any
car guy that's just nuts right there.

Toyota tried to make a Lexus Prius (HS 250h). It flopped so bad they couldn't even give
'em away. This, I'm afraid, is the same type o' deal. Undaunted, Toyota tried again
with CT200h which sold pretty well, for it's price - which still is less than half what
ELR will be marketed at. Maybe Caddy'll fair better if they build a variant off Volt v.2.

In the end, your Tom Jefferson list will say: ELR PROS - caste-iron range extender
( same as Volt but for 20-$30,000 more ) ensuring a luxe coupe that goes
1-14 miles less on electrons than $37,000 Volt and uses gasoline. This means,
I will never have range anxiety.

Sheesh. Hold your horses and wait on Superchargers and battery swap stations. If
you can afford ELR you can do a batt swap in case you have no patience, or have
an absolute need to have gas station convenience.

RECHARGE!,

James

 

[Melvin1]

Here's one more way to see ELR: Caddy's version of the Fisker Karma but
lacking the Fisker's seating capacity, performance
and rear wheel drive.

Even then, your Tom Jefferson list may sway towards the Fisker. After all,
they will be collector's items, no doubt. Fisker is arguably as good looking
or better, depending on taste, and the Fisker can be had for a screamin'
deal right now and be serviced by shops that do GM. The Fisker goes
further on electricity and I'd take the Fisker on a duel around a good
road course, say Watkins Glen or Laguna Seca. Rear drive better than
front drive any day.

Of course, the Karma has a lot against it. It's build quality stinks - but
many of the flaws like bad fit of hood and trunklid were adjusted after
delivery. Make sure you have the new cooling fan retrofit, and yes,
it's not MADE IN USA. Caddy scores on fit-and-finish and servicing
by a still-afloat dealer network. CUE beats that
Fisker mish-mash infotainment system. Are you looking for a poser or performance?

In all, they're about even-Steven in my book. I'd take the Fisker for
it's no-question collectible value even though you'll have to wait
20 years or so for payback. Until then you can take four passengers in comfort, go further on
electricity, use less gas and still get looks and
drools, AND enjoy rear wheel drive control,
confidence and greater dynamics.

RECHARGE!,

James

 

[Noel Park]

James McQuaid : The Volt has the ZF steering gear. The answer is here:
#3

Cool! Who knew? +1

 

[Noel Park]

Melvin : Very much wishful thinking to think an ELR or Volt could handle as well as a BMW 3
Series, let alone an M3.
#19

"Handling" is an oversold and misunderstood concept IMHO. My Volt handles well enough that I can embarrass most high end sports cars on a curvy road if I'm in the mood. It's about 99% a question of driver experience and determination. Most of those drivers, indeed most street drivers, have no concept of the performance envelope of a modern car. The think they are going fast when the aren't.

I know my limitations and I'm just a pretty fair amateur road racer with a lot of race miles under my belt. An equal driver in a Corvette or an M3 or equivalent would leave me for dead. But 99% of street drivers aren't. So all of the bragging rights about cutting edge chassis tweaks and such are a total waste of time and money for 99% of the drivers on the road. Again, JMHO, based on a lot of personal experience.

 

[Noel Park]

Melvin : the Fisker can be had for a screamin’
deal right now
#21

Where are you going to buy a Fisker? As I understand it, Valmet hasn't built one since July of 2012. Of course I suppose that there are a few owners who might be pretty happy to unload their used orphans right now, LOL.

 

[George S. Bower]

Noel Park : #19


I can embarrass most high end sports cars on a curvy road if I’m in the mood.
Without a doubt Noel!

 

[volt11]

In the handing department, I think the Volt already has good wheel control, suspension tuning, and very good steering. What it mainly lacks for serious corner carving is grip, and it will be interesting to see how much if any the ELR raises that bar.

Right now the ELR could land anywhere from a highly desirable sporty coupe of the future to an overpriced bauble with no clear audience. The devil, as usual, is in the details. Almost everything we've learned about the car since details started coming out makes me pessimistic, like its kind of sad 0-60 estimates, but I'm trying to remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[George S. Bower]

Melvin ,

Thx for the posts.
I was getting bored.

 

[rdunniii]

Limited is a completely meaningless advertising word. The Volt is a limited car. If/when the Gen II comes out the number of Gen Is will be limited to those made.

By limited does GM think it can recoupe it's $35M and all the other costs by selling 1000 for $100K each and then just stopping? Has GM ever done that before? How has it worked out for them? That is how Apple prices and markets stuff but I don't think GM even closely has the brand reputation today to pull that off. Tesla is working very hard and spending lots of $ to give them that rep and they don't have to carry the GM baggage.

Also, there is a big difference between the asking and the selling, as we all know with the Volt. Remember how much we seem to agree that at the current asking price points the Volt is already in Cadillac territory. Maybe GM thinks the ELR is equivalent to the CTS-V $ wise but I think not. The plain CTS coupe maybe, but the CTS is currently priced in Volt territory already.

The ELR is just flat out not a competitor to the Tesla S, not in any dimension or parameter you can come up with. The only advantage the ELR will have is range and I do not think that is a concern for people buying $60K+ cars. People in this demographic just do not spend their time driving long trips where this would be an issue.

Rebadge it as a Volt coupe at the current price points plus ~$5K and sign me up. I really do not like 4-door cars, only other one I have owned in 45 years of driving was a '71 Hornet Sportabout.

Tangent: I'm already on the prowl in junk yards for HiPer suspensions from the 2010+ Buick LaCross CXS to see the particulars.

 

[Noel Park]

volt11 : In the handing department, I think the Volt already has good wheel control, suspension tuning, and very good steering. What it mainly lacks for serious corner carving is grip,
#26

I agree with you on the Volt chassis. I have been very pleasantly surprised by how capable it is. +1

As to grip, assuming that the chassis is decent, most of it is largely determined by tires. Clearly the low rolling resistance tires on the Volt trade off grip for AER/fuel economy. A set of good sticky sporty tires would make a big difference, but the trade off isn't worth it to me.

 

[Noel Park]

George S. Bower :
Melvin ,


Thx for the posts.
I was getting bored.
#27

Well now there's a positive way to look at it, LOL. +1

Alas, I have to put in with him when he invokes the Allante and the XLR. I hope Caddy sells them by the bushels, but I dunno.................

I thought of you and our friends in Prescott when I heard about that terrible fire this AM. I looked on Google Maps and I guess/hope that you guys are far enough away not to be in danger. What a tragedy. The "Urban/Wildland Interface" is a dangerous place, particularly in weather like this.

I think that we all weep for those brave firefighters and their families. A sad day in AZ for sure.

 

[kForceZero1]

Melvin :

Sheesh. Hold your horses and wait on Superchargers and battery swap stations. If
you can afford ELR you can do a batt swap in case you have no patience, or have
an absolute need to have gas station convenience.


I think I'm going to be an old man (and I'm in my early 30s) before there's sufficient superchargers and battery swap stations to warrant wide spread adoption of BEVs. There's hardly enough regular chargers, never mind superchargers! Besides you're not supposed to use those all the time, they'll kill your battery. They're more like lifelines on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, you get about 3 but that's it.

 

[DonC]

Jackson : One thing my Salesman didn’t know was whether or not GM still requires a GM-associated electrician to install an EVSE.Does anybody know this?How do you find an EVSE-capable electrician, anyway?I'm not sure this was ever required. In any event it most certainly is not. All you need to do is run a 240v line with appropriate wire to an outlet.

 

[DonC]

Noel Park : So all of the bragging rights about cutting edge chassis tweaks and such are a total waste of time and money for 99% of the drivers on the road. Again, JMHO, based on a lot of personal experience.Lately with the North County Fair going on I find myself sitting behind school buses. Definitely puts a crimp into racing! LOL

GEORGE: I'll add to Noel's thoughts about you folks in AZ. Seems like a terrible fire. I can't ever remember an entire crew being lost, and the crew was definitely not a bunch of amateurs. Horrible tragedy. Hope the fire gets contained soon.

 

[kForceZero1]

rdunniii : The ELR is just flat out not a competitor to the Tesla S, not in any dimension or parameter you can come up with. The only advantage the ELR will have is range and I do not think that is a concern for people buying $60K+ cars. People in this demographic just do not spend their time driving long trips where this would be an issue.

Also people in that demographic just don't like to be bothered to make sure they charge every night or to wait 34 hours for a full charge from a standard 240V outlet (or even the 14 hours for the higher amped version). Alternatively, as you've stated, they won't spend their time driving long trips where this would be an issue, such as when driving to their nearest supercharger!

 

[DonC]

kForceZero : I think I’m going to be an old man (and I’m in my early 30s) before there’s sufficient superchargers and battery swap stations to warrant wide spread adoption of BEVs.May depend on how old an "old man" is. LOL

Where I am DC chargers are showing up at a decent rate. You don't need a ton of them. For cross country trips you need batteries with higher energy density, but for the vast majority of driving a few QC chargers will do the trick, and I think we'll get there in the next few years.

 

[rdunniii]

kForceZero : Also people in that demographic just don’t like to be bothered to make sure they charge every night or to wait 34 hours for a full charge from a standard 240V outlet (or even the 14 hours for the higher amped version).Alternatively, as you’ve stated, they won’t spend their time driving long trips where this would be an issue, such as when driving to their nearest supercharger!

The couple of owners I know have far less problem with the couple of times a week (or less) they need to plug in to charge rather than going to a gas station at all.

 

[Jackson]

DonC : Where I am DC chargers are showing up at a decent rate. You don’t need a ton of them. For cross country trips you need batteries with higher energy density, but for the vast majority of driving a few QC chargers will do the trick, and I think we’ll get there in the next few years.
I think there is just one supercharger in the state of Georgia, and it hasn't actually opened yet. Don't rule out the 'backwater' effect. You may find yourself limited as to destination even with battery swaps and supercharging. Of course, a lot of people are perfectly fine with only going to "cool" locations; but in real life, you are often required to take the road less traveled.

On the other hand, EVSEs are popping up all over the place for your local driving. Volt is the answer for long distance travel in an EV, and it will be for decades.

 

[jbfalaska]

Yet another great American-made, American-designed, American FUELED vehicle. Thank you Caddy for adding a car to the line up - GET US OFF FOREIGN OIL!!!