[Stromfahrer]

About a year ago when my building raised the price to $1.50/hour I posted this thread:

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?251129-Maybe-money-talks-after-all

As expected, almost no one uses the chargers anymore. I'm assuming the building is taking in less net revenue, and also assuming no one's paying attention. So I called and spoke to someone who suggested I send an email. So I sent this. Sound reasonable? I got a nice response from the person i spoke to saying she'd forward it. I'll post if anything happens.

"Dear ________, following up our phone call, I have the following comments regarding EV Charging here.

When I bought my Volt 4 years ago, a big part of the decision was the “free” charging at work. I of course knew it was unlikely to last, but enjoyed it while it did. A few years ago, when the .75/hour price was implemented, that was still less expensive than gasoline, and a little less than charging at home. Many cars still charged here at that price.

About a year ago when the price doubled to $1.50/hr, I stopped charging at work completely. At that price, it was significantly less expensive to charge at home, and actually less expensive simply to run on gasoline. The Volt (most cars I saw charging in the building were Volts) can run on either gas or electricity. When the price doubled, I said to myself “I bet most people will stop charging there now.” I’ve kept an eye on the number of empty chargers since the increase, and as I expected, it’s rare to see more than one car plugged in, and most of the time all the chargers are empty. Ironically, the price increase came shortly after the investment in 4 new chargers, but no one is using them.

I understand the need to cover costs, and recoup the investment in the chargers. However, I would be willing to bet that the overall revenue the building receives since it doubled the price is less than the revenue generated before the increase, when most of the chargers were full for most of the day.

If the price were reduced back to the .75/hour, I would resume charging at work, and I bet many others would as well. I think the total revenue would increase. Sounds like a win-win to me.

I’d be happy to talk to whoever the decision-makers are on this. Thank you."

 

[ZamboniMan]

Sounds polite enough. Perhaps they would be open to exploring other options, like a pre-tax payroll deduction for a "charge card?"

 

[Off Oil]

It sounds fine. IMO the amount charged should be higher than if charging at home, to recover the higher operating costs. It also discourages the use of a public station instead of charging at home, clogging up the resource. Perhaps $1 per hour should be the proposal. I have a 52 mile round trip commute, and easily cover this in my 2017.

 

[llninja]

That's not as bad as the nearest Chargepoint to me... $2 per hour for the first 4 hours, then $8 per hour after that.

I guess it is to discourage people from parking there all day.

 

[Off Oil]

Keep in mind that commercial power rates are typically always higher than residential, usually significantly. So if they were charging .75 per hour before and this was cheaper than residential as indicated, they were not even covering the cost of electricity consumed.

 

[bjrosen]

75 cents is a little low, it costs me about 86 cents to charge at home. $1 would be about right, it would cover the electricity and give them a little profit to cover the installation and maintenance of the EVSEs. I agree that $1.5 is too high but $1 would be fine.

 

[Coppersnowboarder]

I only use about $0.60 of electricity to commute each day. When I tried to use a standard 110-volt outlet at my condominium and reimburse the HOA, the HOA banned all electric vehicle charging. The level of ignorance is highlighted by the President of the HOA who said that he talked to his buddy (the expert) who told him that an electric vehicle costs $3.00 per day to charge. The HOA also required me to purchase hundreds of thousands of dollars of liability insurance to cover the risk of fire from my electric vehicle exploding.

 

[llninja]

I only use about $0.60 of electricity to commute each day. When I tried to use a standard 110-volt outlet at my condominium and reimburse the HOA, the HOA banned all electric vehicle charging. The level of ignorance is highlighted by the President of the HOA who said that he talked to his buddy (the expert) who told him that an electric vehicle costs $3.00 per day to charge. The HOA also required me to purchase hundreds of thousands of dollars of liability insurance to cover the risk of fire from my electric vehicle exploding.

Maybe a big fat lawsuit naming against each board member individually, not just the HOA, might cause them to relax this. The other option, move away. I hate HOAs. They seem to always pick Barney Fife or Taylor's Doose to be in charge, and they let the power get to their head.

 

[Sean-a-Tron]

These meters should be based on kWh used and not time. I read somewhere that it was illegal to resell electricity by the kWh, but I've charged at a couple of Juicebox's that did this. They may be afraid of EV's like the Leaf and Bolt with their 6.6kW chargers. Assuming a $0.15/kWh rate in your area. A steady 6.6kW draw would be about a dollars worth of electricity an hour. This makes it unfair for us Volt drivers since our cars are limited to 3.3kW and 3.6kW (Gen2). We only get half of our moneys worth of energy.

I think it should be: Total kWh used * Rate, with a progressive rate for every hour you're plugged in to discourage hogging. Also a $2 charge every hour after 4 hours.

It should at least have multi tiered charging. Tier 1 is 3.3kW and Tier 2 is 6.6kW. Otherwise

 

[Sean-a-Tron]

I only use about $0.60 of electricity to commute each day. When I tried to use a standard 110-volt outlet at my condominium and reimburse the HOA, the HOA banned all electric vehicle charging. The level of ignorance is highlighted by the President of the HOA who said that he talked to his buddy (the expert) who told him that an electric vehicle costs $3.00 per day to charge. The HOA also required me to purchase hundreds of thousands of dollars of liability insurance to cover the risk of fire from my electric vehicle exploding.

Sounds like FUD. Tell them that an electric clothes dryer is more likely to explode than an EV.

 

[DonC]

I think public charging should be more expensive than home charging. Otherwise you have too many people who could charge at home clogging the public chargers.

The discussion of income to the operator is misplaced IMO. I doubt the company cares about the small amount of revenue it would get from a few charging sessions. It's mostly likely an accommodation. Alternatively it might cost $1.50 an hour for the electricity. meaning short run variable costs wouldn't be met with a charging fee less than $1.50. In this case of course it would never make financial sense to charge less. Having no one use the chargers would cost less than having many people using them for less than $1.50/hour. Given this, I think you might want to change your pitch a little bit, emphasizing the environmental aspects of charging as much or more than having revenue. There has to be some reason the chargers were installed, and I doubt it was in order to make money.

I'm a little confused, however, why you think you need to charge at work. Other than being cheaper than home charging of course. Personally if I needed to charge in order to get somewhere it wouldn't matter if it cost $1.50 or $.75.

 

[Mister Dave]

Maybe a big fat lawsuit naming against each board member individually, not just the HOA, might cause them to relax this.

As an HOA president I'm going to say not likely.

The other option, move away.

Yep.

Let me rephrase that... yes PLEASE DO move! No one wants to sit on a board over pain in the @$$ whiner members. You wouldn't like it either.

I hate HOAs. They seem to always pick Barney Fife or Taylor's Doose to be in charge, and they let the power get to their head.

I'll just take exception to that remark. Maybe if the whiners were willing to do the work things would be different. For one thing you might grasp why decisions are made the way they are.

And by the way, the board of managers is elected by the members. Try showing up for a meeting or two, you know, like when elections are held.

Power, yes. That's why we give up our free time for no pay, so we can lord over you. Thanks.

 

[obermd]

As an HOA president I'm going to say not likely.



Yep.

Let me rephrase that... yes PLEASE DO move! No one wants to sit on a board over pain in the @$$ whiner members. You wouldn't like it either.



I'll just take exception to that remark. Maybe if the whiners were willing to do the work things would be different. For one thing you might grasp why decisions are made the way they are.

And by the way, the board of managers is elected by the members. Try showing up for a meeting or two, you know, like when elections are held.

Power, yes. That's why we give up our free time for no pay, so we can lord over you. Thanks.

In Colorado the laws governing HOAs are so weak that many HOAs have run roughshod over their residents. It got so bad here that the state passed a law that prevents HOAs from requiring only water hungry lawns. We're a semi-arid climate and we had HOAs requiring residents plant and maintain water demanding lawns. Some of them wouldn't even allow lawn grasses that require as much as 50% less water.

Are there benefits to an HOA, yes. There are also some good HOAs, but there are many that aren't well run.

Requiring that much insurance for an EV based on two fires, both of which had sustained damage to their battery packs, is indefensible. One was a Volt that had been crash tested - it wouldn't have been allowed on the roads to begin with. The other was a Tesla that had sustained damage from running over something on a dirt road in France.

Gasoline is far more explosive. The difference is people fear the unknown and EVs are an unknown for many people.

 

[llninja]

As an HOA president I'm going to say not likely.



Yep.

Let me rephrase that... yes PLEASE DO move! No one wants to sit on a board over pain in the @$$ whiner members. You wouldn't like it either.



I'll just take exception to that remark. Maybe if the whiners were willing to do the work things would be different. For one thing you might grasp why decisions are made the way they are.

And by the way, the board of managers is elected by the members. Try showing up for a meeting or two, you know, like when elections are held.

Power, yes. That's why we give up our free time for no pay, so we can lord over you. Thanks.

The HOA president of the subdivision nearest to our property (we are members only because we have access to the lakes, but we are not in their subdivision) decided to build his driveway on his neighbor's property. When selling his house, he was forced to move the driveway after the survey. He built a second house in the same subdivision, ended up encroaching the new driveway 15 feet into my property, but because it was only the very end of the driveway which has a township easement near the edges of the road, there's not much I can do about it. Then he sold and moved away and no new president has been elected. So it's dysfunctional here. I'm glad I don't live in that HOA, just have access to the lakes

 

[Mister Dave]

Are there benefits to an HOA, yes. There are also some good HOAs, but there are many that aren't well run.

We take responsibility or we don't. If you live in an HOA community and you don't like what's happening, run in the election. In my state elections are required every 2 years. Special elections can be held at any time if the board is irresponsible in their duties.

I can only be responsible for my community. I won't be discriminated against by lazy jackasses because I chose to take on a thankless job no one else has the decency to volunteer their precious time for.

Requiring that much insurance for an EV based on two fires, both of which had sustained damage to their battery packs, is indefensible. One was a Volt that had been crash tested - it wouldn't have been allowed on the roads to begin with. The other was a Tesla that had sustained damage from running over something on a dirt road in France.

Gasoline is far more explosive. The difference is people fear the unknown and EVs are an unknown for many people.

1) This is a he said -> he said. With that in mind....
2) Insurance writers decide what you pay. They can hit you for being ugly, having buck teeth or whatever tickles their fancy.
3) I suspect there's quite a bit more to this story. Every story has 2 sides at a minimum.

Back on topic, This isn't an HOA issue and I think DonC summed it up well enough, so.....

 

[viking79]

Keep in mind that commercial power rates are typically always higher than residential, usually significantly. So if they were charging .75 per hour before and this was cheaper than residential as indicated, they were not even covering the cost of electricity consumed.

Commercial rates in my area are about half of what the residential are. They are charged the rate of electricity plus a markup, with residential they don't charge much connection fee and instead price it into the rate. I pay 12 cents per kWh or so at home, but my office it is around 6 or 7. However, the monthly office bill is around 1k a month, which is more than 10 times what my house is.

 

[freshcut]

75 cents is a little low, it costs me about 86 cents to charge at home. $1 would be about right, it would cover the electricity and give them a little profit to cover the installation and maintenance of the EVSEs. I agree that $1.5 is too high but $1 would be fine.

Is 86 cents your total cost to charge? In that case, you're looking at about 22 cents/hour if charging from empty. VERY cheap compared to even $1/hour in which case it would cost you $4-5 to fully charge giving you about the distance of a gallon of gas making it cheaper to just use gas. Most people look at what the cost per hour is and associate that with what it would cost them for the total charge not taking into account that it's a per hour rate and we take 4-5 hours to fully charge. At $1.50/hour, you're looking at about $6-7.50, again not too cost effective when compared to gasoline.

 

[bjrosen]

Is 86 cents your total cost to charge? In that case, you're looking at about 22 cents/hour if charging from empty. VERY cheap compared to even $1/hour in which case it would cost you $4-5 to fully charge giving you about the distance of a gallon of gas making it cheaper to just use gas. Most people look at what the cost per hour is and associate that with what it would cost them for the total charge not taking into account that it's a per hour rate and we take 4-5 hours to fully charge. At $1.50/hour, you're looking at about $6-7.50, again not too cost effective when compared to gasoline.

86 cents/hour. Electricity is 21.4 cents/KWh, assume 90% charge efficiency that's 23.8 cents/hour * 3.6KW per hour, 85.38 cents/hour.

 

[obermd]

We take responsibility or we don't. If you live in an HOA community and you don't like what's happening, run in the election.

Not always true. I did participate when our builder HOA was terminating and anyone who tried to speak out against forming a private HOA was shouted down. I got up and left that meeting. Today I'm a lot more ornery and if that had happened I probably would have gotten up and walked to the front of the room and shut down the entire meeting so those who were against the HOA could be heard.

Under the builder HOA the vote on the private HOA required the majority of the homeowners vote in favor of creating a private HOA. The builder HOA didn't specify the majority of voting homeowners - it very clearly specified the majority of homeowners. The vote was taken and the results were 101 to 100 in favor of creating the HOA. The problem is there are slightly over 500 homes so the vote actually fell short by roughly 150 to create the HOA. Those pushing for the HOA created the HOA anyway and then tried to bill everyone in the community HOA dues. Most of us ignored them. The next year they tried again but this time a real estate lawyer had moved in and he told them that since the original vote didn't qualify to create the HOA that they were out of luck and that if they persisted he would take them to court on the grounds they had violated the original Builder HOA. Needless to say our neighborhood is a lot more diverse and enjoyable to live in than the neighborhoods immediately around us.

Bottom line - even if you attempt to get involved those who don't like the direction HOAs take are frequently shut out of the HOA.

 

[Barry]

This thread seems to have quickly switched topics from charging to HOAs. But to address the OP, I would remove any reference in your email to comparing cost of charging at work to cost of charging at home. The employer has no reason to try to price below what you pay at home, and in fact may well want to price higher than that, so including that reference is working against you.

Also remove your reference to them needing to "recoup the investment in the chargers." They will be more open to lower pricing if they are thinking only in terms of operating costs, not capital investment.

If you can find out what they pay per kWh and the max charge rate of the EVSEs, you can argue for a price that covers that cost. That is really the number that is among the most relevant to any pricing decision they make.