That is like saying a corvette is not cost effective vs a yugo.

 

The issue with the assumption is you are comparing cars that are not comparable. I've owned a Prius and now a Volt. The build quality nor plushness of the Prius is no-where near that of the Volt.

In my opinion, the build of the Volt is closer to a 3 series BMW which in itself it nothing like a Prius.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the Prius when I bought it for my wife, it was fun and revolutionary, but it simply isn't in the same league and therefore (imo) the basis of your comparison is invalid.

 

That is like saying a corvette is not cost effective vs a yugo.

Thats not True...I'm comparing two fuel efficient vehicles, not a sports car and a "Yugo."

 

Isn't the Volt a midsize and the Prius C a Sub-Compact ?

 

I got $7500 from the Feds and $3500 back from Pennsylvania.

Paid $36,616 OTD for my Volt plus the $11,000 in credits.

You do the math. Nice try.

 

Mine was 38k out the door. I drive 18k+ per year, and my charge costs are 80 cents per day (really more like 60 since charging at work is free.) redo your math and its so close your then comparing a pastic box vs a high class car and that is a clear win for the volt.... Also, to get the upgrades in electronics that are standard in the volt, your prius is more like 29-33k........ so really in my mind the volt is a clear winner....

When i did the math before purchasing, the purely cost winner was the Honda insight, which, no one ever mentions but IMHO is a much better car for less money when compared to the prius......

 

Well thats your opinion about being invalid, I agree the cars are different, but people buy the volt to save money on fuel and the same reason people buy the prius to save at the pump...they both get good milage so I think its important to compare the two for a person looking to buy a new car. 16 years is just crazy to break even...if it was 5 years I would say, "Ok, thats reasonable." You have to admit, I"m right on target here....

 

Ok, so just look at your pocket book, decide what you can afford and buy the one you want. If you are happy with the build and ride of a Prius, go for it. If you prefer something a bit more luxurious, take a more serious look at the Volt, if you are going all out, get the Tesla. Whatever you do, don't just look at the math, get out in the car and go drive it, you'll see the difference and you'll see what you are paying for. And as ThaDak said, don't forget your rebates, it makes a big difference.

My point is you are trying to assert it's going to take 16 years to break even to purchasing something that isn't comparable. If you are going to do that you might as well look at the break-even price of the Tesla S at $80k, since you aren't comparing apples to apples anyway.

 

I see your point....as far as build quality, I dont' know if thats proven that the Prius is not as good...I'd like to see reliablility comparisons but the volt hasn't been around long enough to do that...

 

It's been around longer than a Prius C and not nearly as many recalls as a Prius.

I have had to take my Prius in several times this past year for recall work and it is looking like another recall is coming out later this month.

The Prius is a reliable way to get me into the Toyota service department.

 

Lets say you buy a base Volt for $38K less $7.5K Fed tax credit and $2.5K California tax credit. You pay $28K for the Volt. At about $1K for fuel in the Prius at about $3.70 per Gal you have $5K for five years versus $1.825K for the Volt. The price difference is $3K and the difference of fuel cost is $3.125K. The Volt is slightly less expensive and with higher fuel prices would be even more so.

 

If I wanted a Prius I would have bought one....but I don't ..and that's a fact. So comparing the Prius with the Volt does not add up.

 

Not all assumption work for everyone. Here is my set of assumptions:

1) My 2013 volt was $39,500 - $9000 federal and state credits, so just $30.5k
2) We drive 24k miles a year.
3) We charge at home for free from solar (due to peak/off peak credits from SDG&E, our existing solar panels basically cover the volt) and free at work for a about 70 miles Pure EV driving with $0 cost per day
4) The volt needs oil changes only once a year for me, vs every 5000 miles for the Prius C (or 3.8 fewer changes per yer for the Volt)

So for me the Prius C would cost (24000/45)*$3.70 (gas) + 3.8*$80 (oil) = $2277 a year more.

So the $5,500 difference is made up for in 2.42 years. After that it's pure win for the Volt, and in the meantime we get a much more fun car to drive...

 

This thread illustrates why economic arguments for EVs don't win people over. Anyone can reach a desired conclusion by making plausible assumptions.

The national security argument makes no assumptions. The $100/barrel price of oil is a fact. The high cost of domestic production is a fact, so fracking can bring us energy independence but not cheap oil.

The Saudi elite are the primary support of Al Qaeda. That fact has been documented in multiple intelligence leaks and New York Times stories. Oil is the only major Irani export besides terrorism.

The only way to end Islamist terrorism is to cut off their funding. The only way to cut off their funding is to drive down world oil prices. The only way to significantly drive down world oil prices is to reduce demand. The biggest consumer of oil is transportation. These are all facts.

EVs, like any technology, will become better, cheaper, and more efficient with time and volume. That can't be absolutely proven, but every comparable technology, including hydrocarbon engines, has done so. Once this happens, it will affect oil consumption in China, India, and every other growing economy that is tired of "investing" foreign exchange in a consumable resource. China and India, for example, are already nuclear powers and can generate any desired amount of electricity at low cost. France is already doing this. OPEC can then either slash prices or run out of customers.

The price in American lives of fighting terrorists and keeping the oil routes clear is documented in the daily newspaper.

The only fill-in-the-blank is the value you place on an American life.

This is the irrefutable argument.

 

..not to mention the rising fuel prices and the ability to charge solar...
In a Prius you can't go without gas, in a Volt - you can. That makes you a bit more independent as well

 

A strange comparison. The Prius C is smaller in every way, has less than 2/3rds the power, far fewer features, and is a lot slower - one of the slowest cars on the road, actually.

No new car will ever be a good investment - either one of these cars is easily defeated by a 2005 Prius, or a 2005 Corolla in cost of ownership terms.

Having said that, I think if one compares against cars of similar capabilities and experiences, the Volt is substantially cheaper to run.

I also disagree with your assertion that people buy Volts to save money. It may be the case with some buyers, but is not a majority reason.

 

No problem. Go buy a Prius C. You deserve each other. And than don't bother me any more with this drivel. It's all been said before 1000 times.

 

I got the Volt so all my costs would be for US technology+US electricity (and maybe a teeny bit of gas to keep the battery warm in frigid temps)

How can any gas only car ever be "cost effective" to me if I end up spending money on thing I don't want to/believe in? Not to mention maintenance, my time also has value, time at the gas pump, time at getting the oil change, time thinking about how I'd wished I'd got a Volt instead lol

As for a quality comparison, I should know, I own an '08. It's no Volt but I still like it for what it is. C is a noisy, bumpy downgrade from that.

Can we cost comparison a Prius C to a Moped now please?

 

This is incomplete. Where are the maintenance costs?

 

If you compare the cost of buying/maintaining a fuel efficient car with the volt, the Volt just doesnt' add up..lets compare the volt against the 2013 Prius C and find out why.

Prius C @ 25k Cost with Yearly Cost (fuel) @ $3.70 Gal for 12K miles @ 45 MPG = $986.70 yearly fuel cost.
Volt @ 35K Cost with Yearly Cost (fuel) @ $1.00 per day = $365.00 yearly fuel cost.

It's very tough to make assumptions on one car compared to a Volt as it all depends on the driving style of the Volt. Here is my stab at the numbers of comparing my Volt to a Prius-C. Now I would never buy a Prius, but here is the comparison none the less.

In my first year I drove 20,000 EV miles, and 139 ICE miles.

Monthly Charging Cost: $45
Yearly Gas Purchases (4.5 gallons due to FMM): $18
Yearly Cost for Fuel/Electricity: $558

Prius-C Fuel Cost for 20K miles @ $3.70 / gallon and 45 mpg: $1645

My Volt Cost me $33K after Federal Tax Credit, so this is $8,000 more than the Prius.

With only Fuel costs considered, my Volt will break even in 7.3 years. However, if maintenance costs, oil changes, breaks are considered it will be less. I will need to change my oil every two years, I am still at 95% after 13 months. The Prius-C would need 4 oil changes a year. So it is an 8:1 ratio of oil changes for my Volt vs the Prius.

I bought my Volt not to save money, but to stop using oil. That's why I try so hard to avoid using gas. I have always been an early adopter of new technology and I just love to get behind the wheel of my Volt! The fact that it will eventually pay for itself is just icing on the cake.

 

I wanted and needed a car that could take me to and from work everyday on battery power, not Dino power. That meant a car that can travel 23 miles all on battery power. In addition I wanted an American car.

The Volt was the only car that satisfies that simple list.

 

The Toyota Prius C is an excellent hybrid with a low cost of ownership. The finer points of your back-of-the-envelope numbers can be argued in either direction, but are close enough to prove the point. For the scenario you've described (12K a year, driven in equal amounts every day for 365 days, stable $3.70 avg per gallon gas), yes indeed, the Prius C costs less to operate and own.

There are benefits to driving a Volt over a Prius C that go beyond economics. For example, it's a priority for me to consume as little foreign oil as possible. It disturbs me deeply to dispense gas into a car. So, if I just happen save money while avoiding gas stations, it's an added benefit. Each person has their own reasons to choose the car they drive. If the Prius C is an acceptable and comparable car to you and you've done the math that justifies the Prius, then a Prius is likely the better choice for you.

 

non-sequitor.

here's I put it: gas is too valuable to putz around town on. gas only comes from one place and it is hard to replace. electricity comes from several source, many of them renewable.

I bet I could find a car uglier than a Prius (ok that one might be tough), smaller than a Prius, that uses less gas than a Prius and cost less than a Prius. So if the only reason I bought one car over another was mileage, few would be driving even a Prius.

But I like my cars to look good, even when sitting still. I like them to handle well when they are moving. I would like to think after 110 yrs of gas we could do better. And electric cars are infinitely better in short commutes than gas. And I bet you wont see many driveability problems. No one will be selling you cans of elixers to clean your fuel injectors and give you better mileage. Eventually, we will figure out a more efficient way to burn the gas to make heat and juice than using an ICE. And soon most cars will be on the juice. There is no other long term solution.

And lastly, I dont actually ever really buy my cars. I loan the whole car. So I have a 2012 MalibuLTZ that I got this big rebate and discount and a 66 month loan. It costs me about 415 a month. I got a 2012 Volt for zero interest on 72 months and it runs 570 a month. I easily save 150 a month in gas (minus the juice charge). And I get the satisfaction of a silky smooth quiet car in town that rarely sees a gas station or needs an oil change. And not seeing a gas station is a great big deal for me. Way more than the few dollars difference.

My only problem now is that as muh as I love the LTZ, I would really rather have 2 Volts. Only I dont have enough personal juice to do that right now.

 

non-sequitor.

I bet I could find a car uglier than a Prius (ok that one might be tough), smaller than a Prius, that uses less gas than a Prius and cost less than a Prius. So if the only reason I bought one car over another was mileage, few would be driving even a Prius.

Take a look at the 2000-2006 Honda Insights 66+ mpg highway. Hard pressed to find an uglier car than those cars. Of course I believe they had the highest mpg as well.

 

The Prius wasnt even a consideration for me after I test drove it prior to the Volt. The interior quality was crap (especially the leather) and the performance was AWFUL. Couldnt care about the payback period for a car I ruled out. I'd rather burn gas than drive a Prius and save on gas.

 

I am just so happy that the government gave me money for my Volt. I love socialism! Thanks for your contribution!

 

I don't think the government gave you any money for your volt. You just didn't have to give the government as much of yours.

 

I spent a week driving a '10 Prius and spent that whole week deciding that although it is a well made car, it is so boring I could never drive one. I have been daily driving my '05 YukonXL 2500 8.1 for 4 years and no longer need a truck. I have two kids. I can charge off peak for $.046/KWh. My company is investigating a charging station at work because they want to support my efforts to use less oil. In gas $ alone the Volt does not make sense, but I paid $28k for the car and will use so close to no gas for my commute it will make me happy. I would prefer to support this direction of technology going forward, think of the book 'if everybody did' and what a difference we could make. This car gives so many options for me to decide how I want to drive, but does not limit my abilities like a pure EV would. It's too easy to use to ignore. And it's worlds more fun than a Prius!

 

Despite 'his' numbers, my Volt is cheaper to own an operate than my previous 25k Mini Cooper. There is no 'payback' period. Its cheaper on my monthly budget from day one. Of course, I detail all of this on my blog. And unlike his super simple calculations, mine take about a page and go into pretty good detail.

 

Wow, not another one of these threads.

Is the Volt cheaper to own than a base model Prius C? For the first 5 years, no. For the first 10 years, possibly.

Even if you make this reach (where most people would not consider the two cars comparable), you are making so many assumptions and failing to account for so many variables as to make your conclusion useless for anyone else. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum, so I'll stick to the short hand of the factors you have failed to address:

1. Increasing fuel costs
2. Individual driving habits
3. Individual rebate programs (some people get well over $10,000 off the price of the Volt)
4. Maintenance costs (this is a biggie, not just for oil changes but also for brake changes and battery replacement, which will come earlier on a Prius C)
5. Value of the Volt's superior warranty

Additional values (i.e., don't have a quantifiable monetary value) that make the Volt worth more than a base model Prius C:

1. Aesthetic appeal
2. Better performance
3. Better features
4. Exclusivity
5. HOV access

As you can see, you've failed to account for a myriad of factors. And the big finale in all of that is, the only thing (in terms of cost of ownership) that a Volt buyer should be comparing it against is the car that they are replacing with the Volt. So your factoring really should consider the following:

Owner trades in Car A for a Volt (or alternative Prius C). How much does Car A cost the owner to own and operate? How much does the Volt cost in comparison to Car A? How much does the Prius C cost in comparison to Car A? What are the respective differences in cost? Without doing the math, my guess is that while, initially, the Prius C might save you more money than the Volt in comparison to Car A, the overall difference in what the Prius C saves you over what the Volt saves you will be less than 10-15%.

 

Additional values (i.e., don't have a quantifiable monetary value) that make the Volt worth more than a base model Prius C:

1. Aesthetic appeal
2. Better performance
3. Better features
4. Exclusivity
5. HOV access

These are quantifiable, except for the HOV access. What is the price difference between a Corvette and a Yugo?

 

You know what? I don't give a ****. I love my Volt. None of the stuff in this thread matters even a little to me.

 

Amen, it all got started by an OP playing the forum.