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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This has probably been said before, and I am sure many heard of all the conspiracy theories out there but this isn't about that. It is why I would have much preferred to see NiMH chemistry over Lithium in the Volt, and for any that may ask why I still bought is because my issue is with the battery pack; not the car.

I shall list the reasons I feel why and if you know why, counter it, agree, whatever please do!

Practical

1) Lithium degrades immediately after being produced: It may be a sales angle having to keep customers at least purchasing new battery packs or whatnot but it confuses me why use a battery that will become useless no matter how well you take care of it, NiMH does not suffer this issue.

NiMH is originally from the older technology of the Nickel Iron battery, 100+ years old... some still in use today!


2) Cannot fully make use of the battery: Okay some can say lithium offers a smaller footprint and even something like 15% reduction to the more advanced NiMH pack. However, as many know we do not fully use the Volt's lithium pack. I believe it reads fully charged at 80% and only drains to something like 30%? Not sure on those numbers, but as only about 50% of the battery is actually being utilized doesn't it make better sense to use NiMH since it does not have memory issues?

Lithium also has the problem that if it does fully deplete it may 'brick', as some Tesla owners have discovered. Yes Chevy has taken care of that issue but letting only half the battery capacity ever be used. That just sounds like such a waste of time, resources, and space! Not to say NiMH probably needs some care as well, but it has already been developed.

It was already well shown from the first EVs back in the late 90s to early 2000s that they were giving about 100 miles of range, so why are we getting so much less in today's EVs? I believe in 2003 they tested a NiMH pack in a vehicle which gave it 200+ miles.


So, it just makes sense to me that they should have used NiMH chemistry over Lithium

Plus all the added costs of trying to keep those lithium batteries lasting in the Volt.


3) Lithium is not as safe: Okay this one probably have taken advancements, and as mentioned above steps taken to ensure it does not happen... but we have seen lithium chemistry catch on fire in lap tops (also issues with the Model S), plus being banned from being transported via air. NiMH is allowed.


4) Lithium is unproven: Yes, it gives us some comfort with the longer warranty on the battery packs but the tech is unproven in real-world use. However, NiMH has and still in use from the vehicles that were available in California in the late 90s.


Enviro-friendly

5) Lithium is not environmentally friendly when NiMH is 100% recyclable, it can be used over and over again.


So instead of 100 - 200 miles range we have 40. Yes it takes care of most people's daily commute which is great but I can't help feel the product is not nearly as great as it could have been. We still have some of those original Rav4 EVs on the road today (20+ years later) with over 100k miles driven and no battery issues...
 

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To your point #2, Toyota limits the SOC range on their NMh batteries too.
 

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1) Welcome to the forum
2) You can than the lithium ion for drastically reducing the weight of the battery pack and being capable of absorbing a charge faster.
3) NiMH packs in Priuses have failed causing the vehicle to be borderline inoperative.
4) LiIon is NOT banned from air travel... What do you think is in laptops and cellphones and ipads? They're not required to be sent via UPS ground and you have to wait 5 days while on vacation before your gadgets catch up with you...
 

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So if GM used this older tech battery,, theoretically, how big dimensionally and how heavy would a 16.5 Kwh NiMH battery pack be?
Remember to allow for a cooling system also. Would it need a heating system?
Have you seen the replacement cost for the Volt battery?
 

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NiMH densities are about maxed out in terms of battery tech advances.
Lithium chemistries are changing yearly and safer, denser and more recyclable chemistries will be had.

NiMH is ok but Li blends will be here a while.

It is just not Lithium but the blend of elements making up the whole of the battery.

Also, the voltage curve of a NiMH differs enough to lose more power toward the end of discharge.

Then there are the "liquid battery" proponents of non-solid batteries (ie. Cambridge Crude from an MIT team).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
To your point #2, Toyota limits the SOC range on their NMh batteries too.
I did not know that, but was it limited in the original Rav4 EVs?

1) Welcome to the forum
2) You can than the lithium ion for drastically reducing the weight of the battery pack and being capable of absorbing a charge faster.
Not sure this makes sense, as GM is only using half the battery for use to help preserve it does nothing to save weight. NiMH is quite capable of absorbing a charge, and becoming more and more dense. Consider the advancements done by Sanyo alone.

3) NiMH packs in Priuses have failed causing the vehicle to be borderline inoperative.
This is an issue with the manufacturing more so then the chemistry, you cannot dispute the fact there are still Rav4 EVs out there, with their original battery packs more than 20 years old and 150k miles.

4) LiIon is NOT banned from air travel... What do you think is in laptops and cellphones and ipads? They're not required to be sent via UPS ground and you have to wait 5 days while on vacation before your gadgets catch up with you...
I am not saying personal devices & consumer goods, I am saying transportation of lithium battery packs as cargo. Not allowed, feel free to look it up as it poses risk.
 

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Most of my power tool batteries were Nimh and they eventually died. I replaced the cells inside on one pack with Lion cells and they were much lighter and delivered more watts. I liked them so much I sold all my Nimh tools and packs on Craigslist and bought the new generation of Lion tools. Much better. Doesn't Nimh have memory issues also?
I picked Lion for my VW conversion because it is more commonly used and therefore there is a better knowledge base.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So if GM used this older tech battery,, theoretically, how big dimensionally and how heavy would a 16.5 Kwh NiMH battery pack be?
Remember to allow for a cooling system also. Would it need a heating system?
Have you seen the replacement cost for the Volt battery?
I believe we are talking about 15% increase, however since only 50% of the current lithium pack is being used it would actually be a reduction in space needed, plus the cooling system during charging has already been developed and little more then fans.

NiMH densities are about maxed out in terms of battery tech advances.
Lithium chemistries are changing yearly and safer, denser and more recyclable chemistries will be had.

NiMH is ok but Li blends will be here a while.

It is just not Lithium but the blend of elements making up the whole of the battery.

Also, the voltage curve of a NiMH differs enough to lose more power toward the end of discharge.

Then there are the "liquid battery" proponents of non-solid batteries (ie. Cambridge Crude from an MIT team).
Not true. NiMH continues to be enhanced, denser/smaller packs as well as better efficiency. Take a look at the ones Sanyo has been developing, holds power so well maybe 2% loss per month.

Im all for a power source that can be fully utilized, and is not doomed to fail the day it was made...


The lithium ion train has left the station. Get used to it.
You mean the troll has left his cave, don't you?
 

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This has probably been said before, and I am sure many heard of all the conspiracy theories out there but this isn't about that. It is why I would have much preferred to see NiMH chemistry over Lithium in the Volt, and for any that may ask why I still bought is because my issue is with the battery pack; not the car.

I shall list the reasons I feel why and if you know why, counter it, agree, whatever please do!

Practical

1) Lithium degrades immediately after being produced: It may be a sales angle having to keep customers at least purchasing new battery packs or whatnot but it confuses me why use a battery that will become useless no matter how well you take care of it, NiMH does not suffer this issue.

NiMH is originally from the older technology of the Nickel Iron battery, 100+ years old... some still in use today!
My understanding is that all batteries degrade over time. Some Lithium chemistries are more vulnerable to sitting at higher ambient temperatures while at higher states of charge, which has given them a worse reputation, but I don't believe the typical properly managed Lithium cell is any worse than the typical NiMH.

2) Cannot fully make use of the battery: Okay some can say lithium offers a smaller footprint and even something like 15% reduction to the more advanced NiMH pack. However, as many know we do not fully use the Volt's lithium pack. I believe it reads fully charged at 80% and only drains to something like 30%? Not sure on those numbers, but as only about 50% of the battery is actually being utilized doesn't it make better sense to use NiMH since it does not have memory issues?

Lithium also has the problem that if it does fully deplete it may 'brick', as some Tesla owners have discovered. Yes Chevy has taken care of that issue but letting only half the battery capacity ever be used. That just sounds like such a waste of time, resources, and space! Not to say NiMH probably needs some care as well, but it has already been developed.

It was already well shown from the first EVs back in the late 90s to early 2000s that they were giving about 100 miles of range, so why are we getting so much less in today's EVs? I believe in 2003 they tested a NiMH pack in a vehicle which gave it 200+ miles.


So, it just makes sense to me that they should have used NiMH chemistry over Lithium

Plus all the added costs of trying to keep those lithium batteries lasting in the Volt.
You remember the Honda Civic Hybrid lawsuits? Honda had a bunch of batteries dying early, so they reprogrammed the cars to use a smaller charge window. After they did that, the cars got worse gas mileage, and owners sued. The Prius actually mostly uses about 20% of the battery from what I'm told - it tries to stay between 40% and 60% charged.

Once again, it's a behavior all batteries are prone to. There are plenty of users out there who run 100% cycles on Lithium batteries - and have very short lives as a result. Even a classic lead acid battery system suffers if it is allowed to discharge fully.

3) Lithium is not as safe: Okay this one probably have taken advancements, and as mentioned above steps taken to ensure it does not happen... but we have seen lithium chemistry catch on fire in lap tops (also issues with the Model S), plus being banned from being transported via air. NiMH is allowed.


4) Lithium is unproven: Yes, it gives us some comfort with the longer warranty on the battery packs but the tech is unproven in real-world use. However, NiMH has and still in use from the vehicles that were available in California in the late 90s.
And the laptop you're typing this on uses what kind of battery? What is in your cell phone, and your digital camera? Lithium batteries have more than a decade of history in all sorts of applications. The situation with fires depends greatly on the exact design and chemistry of the battery.

Enviro-friendly

5) Lithium is not environmentally friendly when NiMH is 100% recyclable, it can be used over and over again.
Again, where are you getting this stuff? Lithium batteries are fully recyclable, too - but it's not likely to happen to them for a long time, because the power companies expect to take the batteries out of dead EVs and build battery banks with them to help regulate the power grid.

So instead of 100 - 200 miles range we have 40. Yes it takes care of most people's daily commute which is great but I can't help feel the product is not nearly as great as it could have been. We still have some of those original Rav4 EVs on the road today (20+ years later) with over 100k miles driven and no battery issues...
That's a philosophy issue. I'm not sure where you get the idea that a NiMH car has ever had a 200 mile range - but the Lithium batteries are smaller and lighter for their electrical capacity, and not vastly more expensive. As Tesla has proven, it is entirely possible to build a Lithium based EV with a 300 mile range.

You've somehow left out the biggest problem with NiMH batteries - self discharge. As in, the power that you put into the battery just vanishes over time - to the tune of 30% per month (presumably 1% per day?) in standard NiMH chemistries (though in recent years Sanyo and some other have improved on this.) Still far worse than the Vampire drain that the Tesla folks complain about.

More to the point here, GM certainly could have made the Volt a 100 mile electric car. However, their genius was in figuring out that they could make something far more useful by replacing the last third of the battery pack with an engine and generator instead. This created a car that can generally be electric most of the time - but which can fit into anyone lifestyle with no sacrifices. No range anxiety, no planning around it for road trips or emergencies - but still, reduces the gas use of the average user by 70%.

Would I like a 50 mile or 100 mile electric range? yes. At the cost of the gas engine right now? no way. Would 100 miles be worth the extra money to me in addition to the gas engine? I'm not sure.

Oh, and for your last point, we have Volts on the road today with 100k miles and no battery issues, too. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Most of my power tool batteries were Nimh and they eventually died. I replaced the cells inside on one pack with Lion cells and they were much lighter and delivered more watts. I liked them so much I sold all my Nimh tools and packs on Craigslist and bought the new generation of Lion tools. Much better. Doesn't Nimh have memory issues also?
I picked Lion for my VW conversion because it is more commonly used and therefore there is a better knowledge base.

Oh I fully agree there is cheapo NiMH batteries out there as well, and have had similar experiences but that issue is quantity over quality. As for EVs there are 20+ year old Rav4's still going strong today with over 150K miles driven, personally I use NiMH rechargeable for all my battery operated devices, at first the cheaper kind I had to recharge every couple weeks... those may have had quick charge of 15 minutes but sucked, and had issues.

I think got complete sets of AccuEvolution in all sizes, 6+ years and not one has failed being used in high and low draining devices.

So again, I firmly believe as it has been proven that it is more of a quality control issue then anything else. Also not saying lithium doesn't have its own pluses of course.
 

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I did not know that, but was it limited in the original Rav4 EVs?



Not sure this makes sense, as GM is only using half the battery for use to help preserve it does nothing to save weight. NiMH is quite capable of absorbing a charge, and becoming more and more dense. Consider the advancements done by Sanyo alone.



This is an issue with the manufacturing more so then the chemistry, you cannot dispute the fact there are still Rav4 EVs out there, with their original battery packs more than 20 years old and 150k miles.



I am not saying personal devices & consumer goods, I am saying transportation of lithium battery packs as cargo. Not allowed, feel free to look it up as it poses risk.
I don't know of any Gen RAV4EV's that are 20 years old. Less than 2000 were sold from 1997 to 2003. I do know of several that have had their batteries reconditioned. A guy in the SF Bay area has a business doing that so there must be more than my two examples that have had to have their batteries replaced. I am not saying that won't happen with Lion chemistry but to me it is a fact of life for any battery.

I am not familiar with the advances Sanyo has made with Nimh. Care to expound?

You are correct about some aspects of transportation. i don't intend to take my car on a plane, and I have no problem getting Lion cells for my e bikes via several different shipping companies.

With any technology I want to take the next step in the right direction not the last step in the wrong direction. My two cents is that Nimh is the wrong direction because it is old technology that is not getting better.
 

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This has probably been said before, and I am sure many heard of all the conspiracy theories out there but this isn't about that. It is why I would have much preferred to see NiMH chemistry over Lithium in the Volt, and for any that may ask why I still bought is because my issue is with the battery pack; not the car.

1) Lithium degrades immediately after being produced: It may be a sales angle having to keep customers at least purchasing new battery packs or whatnot but it confuses me why use a battery that will become useless no matter how well you take care of it, NiMH does not suffer this issue.
I'm pretty sure Nimh degrades too. I have had many electronic devices over the years that used it, including a few Prius. You don't notice on the Prius because it comes from the factory with more capacity than you really need and so a 50% degradation isn't all that noticeable to the Prius driver. It will eventually start impacting the fuel economy when the car can no longer store very much energy from regenerative braking.

2) Cannot fully make use of the battery: Okay some can say lithium offers a smaller footprint and even something like 15% reduction to the more advanced NiMH pack. However, as many know we do not fully use the Volt's lithium pack.
NiMh batteries must also use a charge window. The Prius, for example, uses much less than the total capacity of the hybrid battery. This is done for longevity, of course.

It was already well shown from the first EVs back in the late 90s to early 2000s that they were giving about 100 miles of range, so why are we getting so much less in today's EVs? I believe in 2003 they tested a NiMH pack in a vehicle which gave it 200+ miles.
100 Miles of range, maybe. But the battery pack in the EV1 was extremely expensive and the EV1 was also a compromise vehicle all around in order to get the efficiency needed for that range. The EV1 with Nimh batteries had 26.4 Kwh, which is a lot more than the Volt and even more than the Leaf has now. Even if the Leaf had 26.4 Kwh, it would not get 100 miles EPA rating. Of course that also brings up another point. I seriously doubt the EV1 used the same range rating system as modern cars. I'd be surprised if it really had any more real-world range than a 2014 Leaf.

Plus all the added costs of trying to keep those lithium batteries lasting in the Volt.
What costs are you referring to? The thermal management? Guess what, NiMh batteries need thermal management too. The Prius, for example, air-cools the batteries. When they get hot, you'll hear a fan come on in the back of the passenger area, which cools the battery pack. And one issue Prius owners face in really hot weather is that the battery has to essentially work very minimally because it gets too hot and can't cool down. This limits the Prius's ability to drive in EV mode. If they used a liquid cooled system like the Volt has, it would be better, but cost more.

3) Lithium is not as safe: Okay this one probably have taken advancements, and as mentioned above steps taken to ensure it does not happen... but we have seen lithium chemistry catch on fire in lap tops (also issues with the Model S), plus being banned from being transported via air. NiMH is allowed.
To say the Lithium is not safe just because a few incidents have occurred is ludicrous. There are almost 100,000 Leafs on the road today and not a single fire. No fires in Volts in the real-world either, that I know of. Same for Ford's products. keep in mind most all hybrids except for Toyota are now using Lithium and even Toyota is using Ltihium in some of their hybrids. That equals hundreds of thousands of cars on the road with lithium batteries.

4) Lithium is unproven: Yes, it gives us some comfort with the longer warranty on the battery packs but the tech is unproven in real-world use. However, NiMH has and still in use from the vehicles that were available in California in the late 90s.
See above... very well proven. In use for many years, and in testing for many years before that.

Enviro-friendly

5) Lithium is not environmentally friendly when NiMH is 100% recyclable, it can be used over and over again.
I'm not convinced of this.. Actually, I think NiMh may be worse on the environment, especially if the mining process is figured into it. But types of batteries should be fully recyclable.

So instead of 100 - 200 miles range we have 40. Yes it takes care of most people's daily commute which is great but I can't help feel the product is not nearly as great as it could have been. We still have some of those original Rav4 EVs on the road today (20+ years later) with over 100k miles driven and no battery issues...
The Volt is a compromise. They could have certainly given it 200 miles of range without a range extender but it would have cost quite a bit more to make and thus be probably as expensive as a Tesla. The idea was to come up with a car that more people could afford and still drive electric every day. Also keep in mind that the EV1 and Rav4 were never priced for making a profit. You can be sure each company lost quite a bit of money on each one manufactured.
 

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2) Cannot fully make use of the battery: Okay some can say lithium offers a smaller footprint and even something like 15% reduction to the more advanced NiMH pack. However, as many know we do not fully use the Volt's lithium pack. I believe it reads fully charged at 80% and only drains to something like 30%? Not sure on those numbers, but as only about 50% of the battery is actually being utilized doesn't it make better sense to use NiMH since it does not have memory issues?
Historically, NiMH has had memory issues, but newer designs have ameliorated that problem. Li-ion batteries do not exhibit a memory effect.

Lithium also has the problem that if it does fully deplete it may 'brick', as some Tesla owners have discovered.
NiMH batteries also suffer irreversible damage from over-discharge.

3) Lithium is not as safe: Okay this one probably have taken advancements, and as mentioned above steps taken to ensure it does not happen... but we have seen lithium chemistry catch on fire in lap tops (also issues with the Model S), plus being banned from being transported via air. NiMH is allowed.
The Lithium chemistry GM chose has held up pretty well, so I think it speaks for itself. Loose batteries in general are not allowed in checked luggage in flight, without regard to their chemistry, because of the risk of short circuits with batteries that are not installed in their devices. NiMH batteries in luggage would be treated the same.

4) Lithium is unproven: Yes, it gives us some comfort with the longer warranty on the battery packs but the tech is unproven in real-world use. However, NiMH has and still in use from the vehicles that were available in California in the late 90s.
Twenty years in portable devices has proven Li-ion batteries to be pretty safe, except for a few incidents.


5) Lithium is not environmentally friendly when NiMH is 100% recyclable, it can be used over and over again.
Li-ion batteries contain no toxic metals, and are about as recyclable as NiHM batteries. The main challenge there is that for both chemistries, mining the raw materials is cheaper than recycling them.

So instead of 100 - 200 miles range we have 40. Yes it takes care of most people's daily commute which is great but I can't help feel the product is not nearly as great as it could have been. We still have some of those original Rav4 EVs on the road today (20+ years later) with over 100k miles driven and no battery issues...
NiMH batteries of the same kWh capacity would be almost twice as heavy and twice as large as Li-ion batteries, which is why GM was so interested in using Li-ion. Your 200 mile EV would probably contain a 2-ton battery, in addition to the weight of the rest of the car, and it would not have any room for passengers.
 

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If you haven't read this guy's synopsis on battery history/chemistries, feel free to take a look:

http://thisweekinbatteries.blogspot.com/2010/08/brief-history-of-batteries-part-1.html

Choice of battery chemistry involves all kinds of trade-offs, some you mention others you don't. I don't care what chemistry is used as long as it is the MOST appropriate,given inherent trade-offs, for the application at hand.

EDIT:
Added more relevant links for those interested:

Lithium research and other battery chemistries:
http://thisweekinbatteries.blogspot.com/2010/04/lithium-lithium-everywhere.html

Battery Chemistries in general:
http://thisweekinbatteries.blogspot.com/2010/08/one-battery-chemistry-to-rule-them-all.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I don't know of any Gen RAV4EV's that are 20 years old. Less than 2000 were sold from 1997 to 2003. I do know of several that have had their batteries reconditioned. A guy in the SF Bay area has a business doing that so there must be more than my two examples that have had to have their batteries replaced. I am not saying that won't happen with Lion chemistry but to me it is a fact of life for any battery.

I am not familiar with the advances Sanyo has made with Nimh. Care to expound?

You are correct about some aspects of transportation. i don't intend to take my car on a plane, and I have no problem getting Lion cells for my e bikes via several different shipping companies.

With any technology I want to take the next step in the right direction not the last step in the wrong direction. My two cents is that Nimh is the wrong direction because it is old technology that is not getting better.
True, I believe your correct some of those Rav4 EVs did have issues and needed reconditioning. However, reconditioning is not replacing the original battery pack. What reconditioning does is fully cycle a battery to restore any memory issue it may be having. This is actually a good thing as it only requires a complete drain and recharge. A set of my LSD D size batteries has similar problem, I reconditioned them and they as good as new again. So you're right, they are not perfect and I do believe it is more of a quality control issue than a design/chemistry issue.

Due to patents they can only be made in smaller capacity, smaller cells but before you dismiss that it is easy to use the same for larger and Tesla uses small cells all in series together for its battery packs. For more common available take a look at Sanyo Eneloop and AccuEvolution NiMH LSD batteries, you will see they have consistently been improved upon.

As for advancements, NiMH is a more mature battery tech and mistakenly believed cannot be improved. However, there has been advancements all along in all areas. Such as improved density allowing a larger power storage, excellent power at cold temperatures of −30 °C and provide over 90% capacity at 70 °C, better and better low self discharge... about 1 - 2% per month meaning you can charge up your car and keep it parked for a long time knowing it will still have juice when you return.
 

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I would be happy to give you every NiMH battery I own. I hate them. Every NiMH battery I had died a quick death. It didn't matter if it was for a laptop or power tool... they all sucked. Li-on is a superior technology. Properly cared for, Lithium batteries have a very long life. There are a lot of very unhappy Prius owners who are having to pony up thousands for a new NiMH battery pack.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm pretty sure Nimh degrades too. I have had many electronic devices over the years that used it, including a few Prius. You don't notice on the Prius because it comes from the factory with more capacity than you really need and so a 50% degradation isn't all that noticeable to the Prius driver. It will eventually start impacting the fuel economy when the car can no longer store very much energy from regenerative braking.
It does not, the only issue it may face is low quality in which case junk or need to be reconditioned (completely discharged and recharged).



NiMh batteries must also use a charge window. The Prius, for example, uses much less than the total capacity of the hybrid battery. This is done for longevity, of course.
Charge windows are another matter, but it has also been proven NiMH can be quick charged. Perhaps the current versions are limited, but the original Rav4 was not. I believe it is more likely so will still be good on a series on stop and goes, rather then just a few and then your just all gas again.


100 Miles of range, maybe. But the battery pack in the EV1 was extremely expensive and the EV1 was also a compromise vehicle all around in order to get the efficiency needed for that range. The EV1 with Nimh batteries had 26.4 Kwh, which is a lot more than the Volt and even more than the Leaf has now. Even if the Leaf had 26.4 Kwh, it would not get 100 miles EPA rating. Of course that also brings up another point. I seriously doubt the EV1 used the same range rating system as modern cars. I'd be surprised if it really had any more real-world range than a 2014 Leaf.
We can agree is price, it is probably more expensive for a NiMH pack but as you know a few factors contribute. As with everything mass production will bring that down, plus it will last longer then your car.


What costs are you referring to? The thermal management? Guess what, NiMh batteries need thermal management too. The Prius, for example, air-cools the batteries. When they get hot, you'll hear a fan come on in the back of the passenger area, which cools the battery pack. And one issue Prius owners face in really hot weather is that the battery has to essentially work very minimally because it gets too hot and can't cool down. This limits the Prius's ability to drive in EV mode. If they used a liquid cooled system like the Volt has, it would be better, but cost more.
Actually as quoted to another NiMH has advanced so it will run a lot better in more extreme temperatures, excellent power at cold temperatures of −30 °C and provide over 90% capacity at 70 °C. However, same as any battery... will get hot when charging so needs to be cooled. I believe fans were the fix originally.



To say the Lithium is not safe just because a few incidents have occurred is ludicrous. There are almost 100,000 Leafs on the road today and not a single fire. No fires in Volts in the real-world either, that I know of. Same for Ford's products. keep in mind most all hybrids except for Toyota are now using Lithium and even Toyota is using Ltihium in some of their hybrids. That equals hundreds of thousands of cars on the road with lithium batteries.
Nono, I am not saying that exactly. I am saying NiMH is safer, as I said I bought a Volt complete with a lithium pack.

See above... very well proven. In use for many years, and in testing for many years before that.
Also, again lithium has proven to work for a number of years but you have to agree still largely untested in the EV world. Some may flip their car every few years so really, that doesnt matter at all. While others do buy used, or keep their cars until they start falling apart... to them it is unproven. NiMH has been proven.

I'm not convinced of this.. Actually, I think NiMh may be worse on the environment, especially if the mining process is figured into it. But types of batteries should be fully recyclable.
Well like it or not, NiMH is 100% recyclable while lithium isn't. I agree though you need to mine to get the materials you need... for both battery types, and for the materials in your car, etc.

The Volt is a compromise. They could have certainly given it 200 miles of range without a range extender but it would have cost quite a bit more to make and thus be probably as expensive as a Tesla. The idea was to come up with a car that more people could afford and still drive electric every day. Also keep in mind that the EV1 and Rav4 were never priced for making a profit. You can be sure each company lost quite a bit of money on each one manufactured.
Volt is not a compromise, it is a hybrid. Just look at the new PHEV coming out for 2014... double the battery range, some even more, usually includes a 'range extender' or the option to include one.

I also agree the EV1 and Rav4 were not priced for immediate profit, they couldn't be and as you may have heard that same argument is made against the Volt. How GM is losing on every one it sold, you know the holes in that theory so why use those arguments against the originals? Had they been mass produced those prices would have dropped significantly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I would be happy to give you every NiMH battery I own. I hate them. Every NiMH battery I had died a quick death. It didn't matter if it was for a laptop or power tool... they all sucked. Li-on is a superior technology. Properly cared for, Lithium batteries have a very long life. There are a lot of very unhappy Prius owners who are having to pony up thousands for a new NiMH battery pack.
Then you have been buying poorly made ones, has not every lithium also died on you? Cell phone & lap top batteries? I have had the opposite experience, my lithiums dies a slow death becoming more and more useless while NiMH batteries are as good as new in all my battery operated devices for over 6 years now since my last purchase.
 
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