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Discussion Starter #1
I found this video pretty interesting. Personally, I think most of this experience is owed to poor trip planning by the owner, but it is an example of how someone with a busy schedule and long trips can be impacted by owning a BEV.

Ironically, he might have saved himself time by backtracking west and recharging at the Burbank Supercharger, but oh well. First world problems.

 

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Why would you check into a hotel without destination charging if you have a Tesla? Why if you chose a hotel without destination charging would you wait to charge until the next morning rather than getting it over with before going to bed?

I am only 2 min into the video and have already concluded the guy is not savvy on how to live with a BEV.

Keith

OK, at 2 min 30 seconds he explained why he didn't charge before bed... he had his kid out with him until 2:00 AM doing a video shoot. <sigh>
 

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Seemed like a very honest look at owning a BEV and just makes me appreciate the Volt all the more. And the Guy with the Model X must have "lots" of money to customize his ride like that. His customization job was more than the used Tesla the guy was driving.
 

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At first I thought he might have gotten caught by the vandalism at Barstow. Luckily not. The big problem was in LA, and that seems to have been caused by "free" charging. It's a problem when charging is free. People driving $125K cars waiting in line to such down a couple of bucks of electricity. Amazing. Same thing happened when the level 2 chargers were free -- they were always filled. Then they started charging for the charge, and now you can always get a spot.

Not sure how men, and perhaps more women, might feel about using the parking garage charger at night.

Doubling the range would take care of many issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I don't know that more range would help, but in his case it might. It sounds like he has a Model S60, so he was only able to get 150 miles of range after over an hour of charging. An 85, 90, or 100 would all have added that much range in about a half hour.

I think the bigger issue is the free charging, and not just that it is over-crowded but also that Tesla owners have become overdependent on it. When I bought up the map of Superchargers in the area where he was, they were quite sparse. If he was where I think he was (Rancho Cucamonga), he was facing a huge gap in the Supercharger network, and I can see why those Superchargers would be overcrowded.
 

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Daytime charging while enroute makes no sense to me and it will fairly soon be obsoleted by longer EV range and standardized battery exchange. (EREV will similarly be obsoleted, but is currently the way to go for many of us.)
 

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IMHO even a Tesla MS60 should still be considered an urban vehicle, same as the Bolt. Even with their SC network many MS60 owners think they can easily travel cross country.

I was going to buy a Tesla CPO but could only afford a MS60, after playing with EVTripPlanner.com for the three destinations/routes I'd want/need to take during the year proved one was totally undo able and the other two could only be done in temps above 45 degrees, unless I was willing to stop at EVERY SC along the routes.
 

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I agree that the case for either EREV for only vehicle or EREV+BEV for multi-vehicle households is pretty strong for people who road trip either frequently enough where renting a car doesn't make sense or drive routes not covered by Super Chargers. Until BEVs can do 300+ miles @75 MPH in any weather and destination chargers are widely available at 2 and 3 star hotels the Volt will work for us.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Daytime charging while enroute makes no sense to me and it will fairly soon be obsoleted by longer EV range and standardized battery exchange. (EREV will similarly be obsoleted, but is currently the way to go for many of us.)
I disagree. I think that stopping en route is actually preferable. You're going to do it with a gasoline vehicle (even if you aren't stopping for gas), but you're going to do it for the convenience and health of your passengers.

I think the bigger issue is charge speed. This has been a hot topic for a while, so I started timing my stops for gasoline, food, and restroom breaks. What I found was that I (without a discernible hold up... long lines, poor service, etc.) was spending about 20 minutes at any one stop. Tack 10 minutes onto that, and you've got nearly 100 miles of charge... and that's in a Bolt.

IMHO even a Tesla MS60 should still be considered an urban vehicle, same as the Bolt. Even with their SC network many MS60 owners think they can easily travel cross country.

I was going to buy a Tesla CPO but could only afford a MS60, after playing with EVTripPlanner.com for the three destinations/routes I'd want/need to take during the year proved one was totally undo able and the other two could only be done in temps above 45 degrees, unless I was willing to stop at EVERY SC along the routes.
I think the newer S60 that is a software restricted S75 is a better option, and for road trips, it is ironically every bit as effective as an S75. The reason for that is you are able to accept higher charge rates up to 100% charge, so in this guy's situation, he would have had 200 miles of range in less than an hour.

That is no different than what Motor Trend uncovered when they tried to charge the Bolt to 100% on a DCFC charger and it took over two hours. People are going to need to start changing their mentality. An EV isn't a cell phone. You don't need to wait for it to hit 100% before you unplug it every time. In fact, it will be better for your time and the battery's life if you unplug it at 80% every time.
 

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I'll split the baby by having a Volt EREV and a Bolt EV. That equates to 100% electric for almost all our family driving. The rare exceptions where the trip is very long and/or charging not available will be easily addressed by the Volt. Having a gas engine backup is very handy for that.
 

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I disagree. I think that stopping en route is actually preferable. You're going to do it with a gasoline vehicle (even if you aren't stopping for gas), but you're going to do it for the convenience and health of your passengers.

I think the bigger issue is charge speed. This has been a hot topic for a while, so I started timing my stops for gasoline, food, and restroom breaks. What I found was that I (without a discernible hold up... long lines, poor service, etc.) was spending about 20 minutes at any one stop. Tack 10 minutes onto that, and you've got nearly 100 miles of charge... and that's in a Bolt.
Add a half hour for each car in front of you if there was a line. Fortunately there aren't that many BEVs out there yet. If charge stations were as common as gas station and BEVs as common as ICE cars, the situation would be miserable at the current charge rates.
 

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How many folk travel over 500 miles at >=85 mph? Outside urban areas, when traffic is light, 85 is normally the slowest I go. Especially in areas with speed limits of 75mph or higher.

It makes no sense in going fast to cut travel time, when you must use the time savings to recharge more often.

A Volt should go 500 miles faster than any BEV. I don't even think it would be close.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Add a half hour for each car in front of you if there was a line. Fortunately there aren't that many BEVs out there yet. If charge stations were as common as gas station and BEVs as common as ICE cars, the situation would be miserable at the current charge rates.
I believe that is partially Tesla's fault. First, it's an issue of free charging. When it's free, people will use it whenever possible and for longer than needed. Second, it's an issue of placement. Tesla seems to favor urban areas, which increases the likelihood of local opportunists. I recognize it is a balancing act because you need enough businesses in the immediate area to make charging for 30 minutes convenient, but to put the chargers in city centers was a mistake.

How many folk travel over 500 miles at >=85 mph? Outside urban areas, when traffic is light, 85 is normally the slowest I go. Especially in areas with speed limits of 75mph or higher.
Well, I don't. I don't want to be among the 1 in 50 people I see pulled over with speeding tickets. One traffic stop and you've effectively negated the time savings from speeding on multiple trips. Tack the increased cost of insurance on, and I'm just not interested in saving a few minutes over 500 miles.
 

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I'll split the baby by having a Volt EREV and a Bolt EV. That equates to 100% electric for almost all our family driving. The rare exceptions where the trip is very long and/or charging not available will be easily addressed by the Volt. Having a gas engine backup is very handy for that.
We are hoping to do the same thing when it comes time to replace my wife's 2008 ICE RAV4 in 2018-2020: Volt + long range BEV until we replace my Volt in 2024 or so.
 

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I believe that is partially Tesla's fault. First, it's an issue of free charging. When it's free, people will use it whenever possible and for longer than needed. Second, it's an issue of placement. Tesla seems to favor urban areas, which increases the likelihood of local opportunists. I recognize it is a balancing act because you need enough businesses in the immediate area to make charging for 30 minutes convenient, but to put the chargers in city centers was a mistake.
I don't think Tesla's free superchargers is responsible for much of anything yet. I'm imagining that the vehicle population is mostly BEVs and charging stations are as common as gas stations currently are. Granted charging at home will moderate the situation to some degree. Stopping at a gas/rest stop on the highway it's not unusual to have 2-3 cars in front of you at the pump. That means may 10-25 minutes waiting? At current charging rates that's 1-1-1/2 hours of waiting before even plugging in. So it's an 1-1/2 to 2 hour stop to charge. It looks even worse if you compare the range acquired to the ICE car during the stop.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I don't think Tesla's free superchargers is responsible for much of anything yet. I'm imagining that the vehicle population is mostly BEVs and charging stations are as common as gas stations currently are. Granted charging at home will moderate the situation to some degree. Stopping at a gas/rest stop on the highway it's not unusual to have 2-3 cars in front of you at the pump. That means may 10-25 minutes waiting? At current charging rates that's 1-1-1/2 hours of waiting before even plugging in. So it's an 1-1/2 to 2 hour stop to charge. It looks even worse if you compare the range acquired to the ICE car during the stop.
I'm not sure where or when you typically travel, but I rarely have to wait in line at a gas station. Usually, I'm waiting for the bathroom, or I'm waiting in line to buy coffee or food while someone is counting out coins.

Regardless, we could probably calculate the balance between public EV charging and gas stations. EVs need to use public refueling far less often than ICEVs, but the time EVs spending refueling is longer. In the end, my guess we'll need about a quarter as many public EV chargers as gas stations to support the same number of EVs on the road as ICEVs.

As a thought experiment, let's just assume that all EVs are Tesla models with Supercharger capability. The average freeway exit along the routes I drive will have about four gas stations. If we put one Tesla Supercharger station (8 to 12 stalls?) at every freeway exit, it would easily support the same number of EVs on the road as we currently have ICEVs. During high traffic periods (probably the type you were referencing when waiting for gas), you might have to wait for a stall, but apparently, that is a problem with ICEVs too.
 

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How many folk travel over 500 miles at >=85 mph? Outside urban areas, when traffic is light, 85 is normally the slowest I go. Especially in areas with speed limits of 75mph or higher.

It makes no sense in going fast to cut travel time, when you must use the time savings to recharge more often.
Depends on the relative efficiency, how the charging rate tapers, and whether the additional consumption leads to extra stops.

In the Model S 85, due to the tapering of charging rate, it's better to drive faster up to about 100mph.

It's also worth noting that additional charging time is additional time out of the car.

A Volt should go 500 miles faster than any BEV. I don't even think it would be close.
Depends on the speed of the route and what you're doing for food. If you're driving a Model S90D at about 55mph, and stop at a Supercharger for lunch around the middle of the route ... :p

Realistically, a BEV is never going to be as fast as an ICEV for long trips. Gas is typically pumped at 5 to 10 gallons per minute. Typical mid-size fuel tanks have 15 gallon fills. Get 30mpg and you get 450 miles for 3 minutes "charging".

But, what you lose on the long trips you gain on the daily grind. And, you don't have to listen to an engine.
 

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We are hoping to do the same thing when it comes time to replace my wife's 2008 ICE RAV4 in 2018-2020: Volt + long range BEV until we replace my Volt in 2024 or so.
Same here. Hope to get a Bolt EV eventually to put alongside the Volt in place of my wife's Traverse. We'll probably keep the Traverse as a third car until EREV is available in an SUV that can tow a camper (GM are you listening?). And in all seriousness, I may just keep my '16 Volt around long enough to hand the keys (ok, the fob) to my son when he turns sixteen (he'll be TWO next week!)
 

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Daytime charging while enroute makes no sense to me and it will fairly soon be obsoleted by longer EV range and standardized battery exchange. (EREV will similarly be obsoleted, but is currently the way to go for many of us.)
I don't see battery exchange ever becoming a viable model... the logistics suck. But within 10-15 years, the capable range should at least double from today's, and that may tip things away from en route charging for many trips, and may make EREVs a harder sell for most. I still really like the EREV model and plan on keeping one for at least that long.
 

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I'm not sure where or when you typically travel, but I rarely have to wait in line at a gas station. Usually, I'm waiting for the bathroom, or I'm waiting in line to buy coffee or food while someone is counting out coins.
Maybe that's true where or when you're travelling, but it's not uncommon to have one or two cars in front of me. I've driven by a wholesale stations full of cars waiting to gas up. My point is still at the current state of the art, two or three cars ahead of you at the pump is a much smaller chunk of time than two or three cars in front of you at a charging station. Each charging station has the capacity to serve fewer cars per day than a gas pump. I think BEVs still account for less that 1% of the cars in the US. Still some places are already having issues with charging stations being backed up. I think it's going to be quite some time before things are sorted out and BEVs are as convenient as ICE cars for mobility. That doesn't mean that they don't work well for many drivers.
 
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