It's battery size. They have a smaller battery so they can afford a gas engine's weight. That's why this is a RE-EV and not an EV. That's why this has a 600 mile range and not 200 with quick gas refueling making it even further.
Who are they kidding with 40 miles?
The Volt gets advertised as having a 40 mile range.
It's predecessor the EV1 was directly based on a prototype vehicle created by AeroVironment called the GM Impact.
It got 160 mile range back in the 90s.
There are companies converting the Scion Xb to electric and getting 140 - 180 mile range. It's a four seat non-aerodynamic brick.
With the resources GM has, they had better figure out how to create a four seat vehicle that Americans would drive, that gets at least 200 miles on a single electric charge, or just give up now.
It's predecessor the EV1 was directly based on a prototype vehicle created by AeroVironment called the GM Impact.
It got 160 mile range back in the 90s.
There are companies converting the Scion Xb to electric and getting 140 - 180 mile range. It's a four seat non-aerodynamic brick.
With the resources GM has, they had better figure out how to create a four seat vehicle that Americans would drive, that gets at least 200 miles on a single electric charge, or just give up now.
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How about the industrial giant Mitsubishi? They're only getting 100 miles out of the Miev, should they give up now too? I guess these Scion modders have it all figured out. They are EV geniuses, whoever they are. 180 EV miles out of heavy steel brick and the best Tesla can do is 200 miles out of an expensive high tech lightweight roadster. Pretty lousy for over $100k, I guess they should throw in the towel too.
Let me guess, all car companies should be building four to five passenger electric cars with 200 mile range, for around $25k and available yesterday or they should just all quit. After all, the EV has been around 100 years and we all know the technology is there, just mean old GM and their big oil company cohorts won't let us have it right? The EV-1 was nearly perfect in every way, maybe too perfect, so we were denied. Given advances in technology in the last 15 years, a 200 mile EV-2 should be a piece of cake, right?
I suggest you research EVs a little deeper, find out their limitations and the technical reasons why and you will start to understand better the reasons why we are where we are and be able to appreciate the beauty of Volt and what GM is trying to do.
Welcome to the forums!
I agree, range is low, especially compared to the range one could expect from a gas car. But all-electric range costs money, lots of money. GM realizes that 200-mile range is not affordable, so they settle for what most Americans drive (and can afford to pay for), which is under 40-miles per day. Then they add a genset for extended range driving to fill in during those non-average trips.
I happen to think the idea of low-range EREVs is a perfect solution for the transition from gas to electric. Right now, 40-miles is all that's affordable. But as more and more cars adopt partial AER vehicles, the cost of batteries will drop.
I agree, range is low, especially compared to the range one could expect from a gas car. But all-electric range costs money, lots of money. GM realizes that 200-mile range is not affordable, so they settle for what most Americans drive (and can afford to pay for), which is under 40-miles per day. Then they add a genset for extended range driving to fill in during those non-average trips.
I happen to think the idea of low-range EREVs is a perfect solution for the transition from gas to electric. Right now, 40-miles is all that's affordable. But as more and more cars adopt partial AER vehicles, the cost of batteries will drop.
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Then perhaps it might be good to make the Volt retroactively BEV only by removing the ICE generator and installing a supplemental battery pack?
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According to GM, EV1's cost $80,000 to produce, and given that the cost was due to the quantity of commoditized batteries, the price wasn't going to drop. GM has found a way to drop the price, use fewer batteries with better performance, to reduce size, weight and cost.
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The EV1 was a pure battery electric vehicle (BEV)
The Volt is a serial plug-in hybrid.
The Volt's potential maximum range is dependent on the size of its fuel tank.
The EV1's potential max range was dependent on the size and type of battery
There was an EV1 Series Hybrid Prototype, which would put it in the same category as the Volt, but only the prototype.
I was a fan of the EV1 jonwa, many of us feel its loss.
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Didn't you just post that mass production lowers the price? You just made that argument in another post about hydrogen cars and how I was misleading people on their costs. The hydrogen car is a lot more complicated and uses far more exotic systems than the EV1 did. I wonder what your excuse will be when they tell us that they cannot produce the hydrogen car at competitive prices. I'm guessing you will talk about conspiracy theories, environmentalists, unexpected advances in other technologies, etc. Please admit one thing. Mass production does not always lower the price of a product to commercially acceptable levels. You can mass produce the following Ferrari F1 but with all of the special materials used and the quality needed how cheap do you really think you can get it? Will the resulting price make people choose this over something else that is on the market?
For many people, that would work well. But most people that are considering the Volt don't want a second car for their average low-distance trips, they want a single car for all of their driving (even those non-average extended trips).
EV range
A little off the sense of this thread, but I drive a GM car (Buick) with guages for either instantaneous MPG or average MPG. These readouts are useful for developing efficient driving habits. Miles per KWH would be impractical since the reading would be infinity when coasting, but Watt hours per mile which I could strive to minimize would be appreciated.
PS I'll take my volt as a Buick Electra, thank you.
A little off the sense of this thread, but I drive a GM car (Buick) with guages for either instantaneous MPG or average MPG. These readouts are useful for developing efficient driving habits. Miles per KWH would be impractical since the reading would be infinity when coasting, but Watt hours per mile which I could strive to minimize would be appreciated.
PS I'll take my volt as a Buick Electra, thank you.
Agreed, GM is totally dragging their heels on this one, if a small manufacturer like Tesla can really do a 150 mile range 4 seat vehicle for 60k then GM deserves to go out of business.
Wait...
Tesla Roadster ... 150 miles AER ... $109,000
ACP eBox ... 70 miles AER ... $73,000
Chevy Volt ... 40 miles AER ... $40,000
(assuming a SOC limit of 30% to 80% for extended battery life on all 3 cars)
The pricing seems fairly consistent, plus the Volt has a range extender. It's very simple:
AER is expensive.
Tesla Roadster ... 150 miles AER ... $109,000
ACP eBox ... 70 miles AER ... $73,000
Chevy Volt ... 40 miles AER ... $40,000
(assuming a SOC limit of 30% to 80% for extended battery life on all 3 cars)
The pricing seems fairly consistent, plus the Volt has a range extender. It's very simple:
AER is expensive.
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Can Tesla do that? Has anybody seen the prototype? Has it been tested? Has there been a real cost analysis done to see if it can really be made for $60k? Or is it just some CEO telling the press that they ought to be able to do this?
I don't get it. Tiny little start ups come out and say they can achieve something without any physical proof of concept and they get taken completely at their word. Hell, it becomes a benchmark for others to aspire to. GM, with a proven track record of achievements says they are going to do something and they get skepticism. People don't believe it will really happen or that it will meet it's performance goals. GM has actually designed, built and delivered to customers more EVs than any other car maker. Their EV-1 was so good there are still people crying and whining about it's demise. So perhaps, just perhaps, GM actually knows what it is talking about when it comes to EVs and maybe we can trust their predictions a little more.
Well I am a fan of the EV1, however claiming GM has a proven track record with electric vehicles and using the EV1 as proof is like claiming the Hindenburg had a good safety record because it only blew up once. GM killed the EV1 and destroyed 99.8% of them and after spending all that time and money on development, testing and production they still refused to bring it back.
As far as who I trust more when it comes to an electric car at this point in time, Tesla or GM thats easy... Tesla! They at least are SELLING an all electric vehicle. Thats more then I can say for GM and they are a Multi-Billion dollar corporation, what excuse do they have?
Whoa there, sport. EV1s were good for 50 miles per charge, not 160. Your data is off by a factor of 3. Plus, charging was an engineering nightmare as the batteries had to be kept cool. If 40 miles is an accurate number and the car can be plugged into a 110 outlet the Volt will make for a pretty good commuter car that, unlike the EV1, can be driven on longer trips.
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You're talking about the original lead-acid batteries. GM replaced those and the range went up to 100 miles. Then the california air resources board forced them to use the new nickel-metal hydride batteries (GM had bought the patents to the battery and was sitting on them). Those batteries are what give you ~150 miles per charge. Toyota made electric SUVs with similar range without any cooling system for the batteries. GM sold those rights to an oil company and that's why everyone's waiting for lithium batteries to get cost effective.
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That is my point exactly, a lot of people are upset that the Volt may cost more than $30,000. But I assume by your request for a Volt in Buick Electra garb that you want a luxury version with every option. For me if that requires me to spend $60,000 or even $70,000 for a leather seat, dual zone climate control, rain sensing wipers, back up camera and every conceivable option than count me in.
PS I once was a person that bought GM cars exclusively but after the poor warrantee service I got with my GM cars I stopped buying GM cars after my 98 Corvette (I still own the 96 Corvette I purchased new and the 62 Corvette I bought a few years ago) and have owned a mix if American and foreign cars. But the last two cars have been Lexus Hybrids [2007 RX400H & 2008 GS450H] and the after sale service has been better than most cars I have owned {Mercedes service was equal to Lexus}. I am willing to give GM another chance but I am going to wait and see if GM deserves another chance. I have over 8,000 people ahead of me on the wait list {if the list will be used by GM} so that will give me so time to see what problems the car has, and more importantly how hard GM works to make the owner happy by fixing the problems. I don’t expect a perfect car, but I do expect it to be fixed in a timely manner the first time I bring it back. Multiple trips to the dealer to have the same problem fixed is not acceptable
When the time come to buy an electric car I don’t want to lower my standards for comfort and luxury so at the very least I will want something equivalent to a Buick Electra. I just hope the GM realizes there are many luxury car owner like myself that aren’t worried about paying for gas, and don’t believe Global warming is man made, but myself and others like me believe that sending our money over to countries in the middle east is a threat to our national security and we must get away from using foreign oil as soon as possible
MY LAST TWO GM CARS
THE TWO GM CARS I STILL OWN
Up to 45 miles now
I read on the GM site that, with recent aerodynamic enhancements, they are looking at 45 miles rather than 40 for the volt.
This would be absolutely perfect for me, as I drive 40.2 miles each day round-trip, 90% of which is expressway and freeway at 50+ miles per hour.
I read on the GM site that, with recent aerodynamic enhancements, they are looking at 45 miles rather than 40 for the volt.
This would be absolutely perfect for me, as I drive 40.2 miles each day round-trip, 90% of which is expressway and freeway at 50+ miles per hour.
Well, "sport"...
Even IF the range was 50 as you say, then what excuse do GM have for putting out a car 10 years later that going to have less range per charge. Even if it is a four seat vehicle with an ICE it doesn't change the fact that even with off the shelf parts people are converting current vehicles to all eclectic and getting 40 mile ranges.
No, I'm talking about the NiMH batteries. I was a test driver for GM on the EV1 project and drove vehicles with both batteries. The most I ever got out of the lead acid batteries was 39 miles per charge. The NiMH batteries raised the maximum to 59. Most charges generated far less mileage. Once I only got 8! Granted, those are test miles but that is nowhere near 150, which is the point I was making.
Also, your reply sounds almost like a quote from Who killed the electric car? I suggest some caution using that as an absolute reference. I watched the film on Youtube yesterday and it makes some excellent points but I also saw some glaring errors...pretty much the best you can expect from any film. That's the nature of the medium: film=entertainment.
In the case of NiMH batteries, we were excited to get them installed in the cars and tested. From my POV, CARB didn't force GM to do anything. GM wanted the EV1 to be amazing. That is why they purchased the rights to NiMH battery technology. The problem was that the batteries only charged efficiently at a certain temperature range so they had to be heated when cold, then cooled once they got hot. This all had to be figured out before they went out to the customers. The only "sitting on" I remember was me sitting on my butt waiting for my cars to charge.
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