GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
Discussion Starter #1

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,359 Posts
I think he makes some very good points, but I really want this to be a "may the best system win" situation so I'm all for various attempts even if it means some wasted money/resources.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,890 Posts
To be clear, I'm a big fan of the Volt and of EREVs in general. I think the EREV approach it's a great compromise of electric driving benefits and long-range practicality.

But one point the author is missing about the benefits of BEVs is that eliminating the engine, fuel tank, exhaust, etc., from a vehicle provides significant ancillary benefits. Principally, more design flexibility for how to lay out storage and seating positions. It potentially also allows for better weight distribution, better aerodynamics (no exhaust), simplified maintenance, and probably some other benefits I'm not thinking of at the moment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,661 Posts
There's room and need for both solutions. Both vehicles still cost more than a similar ICE vehicle, so for the time being one needs to consider that aspect of "EV" TCO.

A perfect garage IMHO would include BOTH vehicles. But now that I'm getting ready to retire I'm down sizing from 3 to 1 vehicles and for me I want a BIG comfortable CPO Model S 60 equipped with FREE supercharging. If when I need a specialized vehicle for a particular task I can rent or borrow.

So one size doesn't fit all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
This is what I've been saying all along. When batteries can hold a 400 mile charge and be fully re-charged in 10 minutes, then a fast recharge infrastructure will be needed. Until then, EREV gets you most of the way to tailpipe-emissions-free driving with no consumer hassle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,314 Posts
The article is fairly decent, though I agree with some above posters that there is room for both systems. My biggest nitpick is that he keeps calling electric miles "emissions free", which is horribly misleading and does a disservice to the EV movement. Say "non-local emissions" or "displaced emissions" or something, but don't claim that electricity doesn't produce emissions.

The comments sections, as usual, is full of horribly uneducated posts. Dunning-Kruger everywhere!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
The article is fairly decent, though I agree with some above posters that there is room for both systems. My biggest nitpick is that he keeps calling electric miles "emissions free", which is horribly misleading and does a disservice to the EV movement. Say "non-local emissions" or "displaced emissions" or something, but don't claim that electricity doesn't produce emissions.

The comments sections, as usual, is full of horribly uneducated posts. Dunning-Kruger everywhere!
It depends on where you live and charge your car. I am moving to Mississippi and the part of the state I will be purchasing a home in is serviced by the Tennessee Valley Authority. They provide power from a mix of fossil fuel, nuclear, and crap loads of hydro electric stations as well as other renewables like solar and wind. In general, electric rates are high in Mississippi, combine that with being in the TVA area of Mississippi I will be eligible for installation credit, and sale of excess power I generate back to the grid at retail rate price, about double what other providers in Mississippi provide... put all that together and I will be installing a large PV system on the house I purchase / or build and my car will run on Sunshine... so some (not all) EV's are zero emissions. Even those running in areas of the country that are 100% coal generated still produce less emissions than a fuel efficient ICE car.

Keith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,314 Posts
It depends on where you live and charge your car. I am moving to Mississippi and the part of the state I will be purchasing a home in is serviced by the Tennessee Valley Authority. They provide power from a mix of fossil fuel, nuclear, and crap loads of hydro electric stations as well as other renewables like solar and wind. In general, electric rates are high in Mississippi, combine that with being in the TVA area of Mississippi I will be eligible for installation credit, and sale of excess power I generate back to the grid at retail rate price, about double what other providers in Mississippi provide... put all that together and I will be installing a large PV system on the house I purchase / or build and my car will run on Sunshine... so some (not all) EV's are zero emissions. Even those running in areas of the country that are 100% coal generated still produce less emissions than a fuel efficient ICE car.

Keith
Sure, I know all about local-grid effects and that EVs are better even on coal (well mostly, there are some things that are worse), but I'd still never write an article (like this author) where I was publicly charging all around California and claim I was driving "no emissions" miles... it's bad journalism.

And yes, I've charged my car from a large commercial solar array on a sunny day before... it does feel damn cool to have that charge be completely solar and about as low-impact as you can get.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
It's amusing to read blogs of some who almost worship the straight BEV concept, and I agree it's simplicity is attractive. Add a vast fast charge network and it appears all other configurations are lost. However, adding that last one or two hundred miles of battery range bumps the cost too high for most buyers, and fast chargers, well they are not as numerous or as quick as gas stations. Seems to me if you've got the R&D knowledge, and manufacturing facilities, you can neatly integrate an ICE with an electric drive for less cost than adding that next big increase in batteries to get into the BEV class. That is until battery cost drop to a particular point, which they may have or are about to. Short story, the Volt is a more economical way to eliminate range anxiety. The amusing part is how much hype there is around the high end BEV performance, and how the lack of a fast charge network is going to hamstring other electric car variants, and one financial writer says Tesla is 10 years ahead of everyone else.

While all this hype, & debate is going on, I'm driving around in lovely electric mode virtually all of the time. Frisky acceleration from the dozens of traffic lights and stop signs I encounter most of the day. Silent smooth instant torque from stop around a corner with no shifting. I plug it in a 120 at home in the evening and it usually indicates 67 EV miles available the next day. I can go to the east Texas pines back roads and drive around all day with no concern about getting home. I didn't have to spend anything close to 100K, or put down $1K and wait for maybe 2 years, or even wait a year for the next versions of 200+ range BEVs. Some body is missing something. Is it me, the general motoring public, or the BEV aficionado?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,013 Posts
It's not you, Don. I have not been able to convince any friends, relatives or anybody to drive a Volt, even after I explain all the benefits you cite. So I just enjoy the drive-- like the idiot in the Mazda ad in his red car.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
@flyingsherpa: Perhaps you missed this: although he starts out discussing trips around CA, the author (and website) is Canadian, and the article is aimed at Canadians (which is why the distances/ranges are listed in kilometres for 95% of the piece).

Chances are that he's from Ontario, Quebec or British Columbia (the 3 biggest provinces by population), all of which are almost entirely fossil-fuel free in their power generation. So while your attention to detail deserves credit, and your points may be more valid as far as American power generation is concerned, you're actually off the mark regarding what the author is describing.

He's factually correct when he states BEV miles are 'emissions-free', if you live in one of those 3 provinces.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,680 Posts
Not a bad article. Possibly a little biased - he spends a lot if time expounding on the benefits of an EREV, without acknowledging the compromise aspects - the only part of it that really bothered me was the very end, where he asked why 'we' are bothering with Superchargers - as if they were publicly funded or belonged to the people/government.

Tesla builds them out of their own pocket, funded by money from the cars they sell. 'We' have no business in deciding whether that's the right thing to do except as potential buyers or potential locations, but of whom are entirely free to support them or not as they choose.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
David Booth is Canadian in the Toronto area. Back in 2012, we were down to less than 3% of Ontario electricity being coal; that was less than we got from wind at the time. Now coal is at zero. Nuclear is still over 50%, so depends if you consider that 'clean' or not, but we are looking fairly good from here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,556 Posts
Nuclear waste doesn't cause air pollution and greenhouse gases. And it's potential fuel for future more advanced nuclear reactors whose waste is much less long-lived.
Or, somebody invent mr fusion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,489 Posts
CO2 is potential future fuel too..... ......among several uses being developed. No one ever got radiation sickness from CO2.
Interesting link, thanks. Although it's not really going to remove CO2 from the air if you just take the fuel that's produced and burn it again.

No one ever got black lung disease from nuclear power. The carbon extraction industry has killed a heckuva lot more people than have ever been killed by the nuclear power industry. Just sayin'...

You choose your poison and then live with it as best you can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
Interesting link, thanks. Although it's not really going to remove CO2 from the air if you just take the fuel that's produced and burn it again.
If you Google "CO2 as fuel" you'll find a lot of interesting stuff.

No one ever got black lung disease from nuclear power. The carbon extraction industry has killed a heckuva lot more people than have ever been killed by the nuclear power industry. Just sayin'...

You choose your poison and then live with it as best you can.
Not really looking for a protracted discussion about nuclear here, but I'll take the poison that doesn't have a centuries long half-life. I'm sure that storage warehouse is safe to tour through, but I'll stay away - just 'cuz.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top