[sparty]

Argh.. PGE is asking for a 7% increase in electric rates for residential customers. A kwh will rise to .12 or slightly above. Wondering if this is going to be a trend across all the US? Maybe the net zero sustainability strategy has something to it

 

[turboguy327]

Damn. We pay $0.037 a kWh.

 

[ClarksonCote]

Do they have the concept of "base charge" there? i.e. a flat delivery fee or similar regardless of the usage?

If so I would advocate that they lower the base charge and raise the kWh fee even more. Not that it necessarily helps you, though it might depending on your usage.

Thinking about it on a grand scale, this approach is a much better way to encourage energy efficiency and also not penalize poorer families that use the least amount of electricity but effectively pay a lot more per kWh.

 

[ClarksonCote]

Damn. We pay $0.037 a kWh.

I can't believe that's true. I'm an hour away from you and pay about $0.12 a kWh, when all fees etc. are factored in.

 

[turboguy327]

I'm not sure how to calculate all said and done, but on our bill itemization that's the cost of a kWh. Some of our power comes from the Erie Canal. Fairport ny has basically free electricity because of this. A high electric bill for a residential house in fairport is like $50 I was told a year ago when we where looking at houses.

 

[ClarksonCote]

I'm not sure how to calculate all said and done, but on our bill itemization that's the cost of a kWh. Some of our power comes from the Erie Canal. Fairport ny has basically free electricity because of this. A high electric bill for a residential house in fairport is like $50 I was told a year ago when we where looking at houses.

Well, in my area we have National Grid (I assume you too, but not certain), and there's a $/kWh charge for supply, and also a $/kWh charge for delivery. Those added up equates to about $0.12/kWh, you need to make sure you add up both for the "real" price you pay for each incremental kWh used. Then there's a $20 base charge that they tack on for the privilege of paying them for the service, which can also increase the effective rate a fair amount when you take your total electric bill and divide by your total kWh used.

 

[turboguy327]

Well, in my area we have National Grid (I assume you too, but not certain), and there's a $/kWh charge for supply, and also a $/kWh charge for delivery. Those added up equates to about $0.12/kWh, you need to make sure you add up both for the "real" price you pay for each incremental kWh used. Then there's a $20 base charge that they tack on for the privilege of paying them for the service, which can also increase the effective rate a fair amount when you take your total electric bill and divide by your total kWh used.

I'll see if I can find the last bill and see. We get it through RGE but not sure who gives them the power or how that all works but I'll get numbers for you later.

 

[AZ EV Driver]

<snip>.....Then there's a $20 base charge that they tack on for the privilege of paying them for the service, which can also increase the effective rate a fair amount when you take your total electric bill and divide by your total kWh used.

While the electric provider does charge a "base rate" even though you may not use any electricity, is it appropriate to include that in the cost of a kWh? The cost of each incremental kWh you consume is not impacted by that "base rate". Mine is based on a daily charge for just having the service, meter reading, billing, etc. so I don't see why those charges should be logged against the incremental cost of a kWh - you pay them no matter what, with each kWh increasing the overall bill based on the other consumption fees. My electric bill has 18 line items total with 11 associated with charges for each kWh. So I feel those 11 items are the only fees that impact the cost of each kWh.

Just my $0.02 worth.

VIN # B0985

 

[ClarksonCote]

Just my $0.02 worth.

First off, I want to apologize to the OP for having caused a bit of a tangent here.

That being said, your opinion is very reasonable, and I don't necessarily disagree. I think the answer is sort of analogous to the question of whether or not MPG or MPGe is the right metric for a plug-in like the Volt. The answer is, it depends!

If you're interested in knowing the incremental cost to charge an EV you might get, then absolutely, the base charge doesn't matter at all.

However, if you're talking rate increases, or how those increases affect different income classes of people, then absolutely the base charge should be factored into how much is paid per kWh and, more importantly, how changing those rate structures in different ways can adversely affect certain classes and change conservation habits.

As an example, near me, National Grid recently INCREASED the base charge for electricity, but DECREASED the rate for each kWh delivered. Personally, I was very against this, but not because I did or did not benefit from the change. The reason is simple: Poorer families have smaller homes and use much less electricity, so under this proposal, they effectively pay much more per kWh they use. Richer families pay less since they use so many more kWh. Additionally, this approach DISCOURAGES conservation of energy because everyone is now paying less per kWh (the part they can control) and more on the base charge (the part they cannot control). This effective increase also discourages solar installations, who often zero out their "per kWh" charges thanks to net metering, but always have to pay the base charge.

When it comes to just stating what a person pays per kWh, I think it's important to factor in the base charge, and most data on what people pay across the nation includes this as well. Because effectively, whether or not the charge is a base charge, a charge for the kWh supply, for the kWh delivery, for a change in weather, etc. it all adds up to an effective cost per kWh the person incurs that month.

So I absolutely agree with you, there's incremental kWh costs, and there are fixed kWh costs, but like any accounting exercise for a business, they are both components that should be counted if you want to know how much you're paying. If you want to know how much MORE you'll pay by getting an electric car, for example, then I 100% agree that the price per kWh (and nothing else) is what you should use to calculate that, because in that scenario, that provides the most accurate answer.

Put another way, as a person uses near zero energy, they are absolutely effectively paying an extremely high cost per kWh of energy. If a person is using 10,000kWh per month, than they're effectively paying the "per kWh" rate with the base charge being immaterial. These examples are both 100% true, an aggregate of the fixed and incremental costs incurred to be a consumer of that month's energy.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

As an example, near me, National Grid recently INCREASED the base charge for electricity, but DECREASED the rate for each kWh delivered. Personally, I was very against this, but not because I did or did not benefit from the change. The reason is simple: Poorer families have smaller homes and use much less electricity, so under this proposal, they effectively pay much more per kWh they use. Richer families pay less since they use so many more kWh. Additionally, this approach DISCOURAGES conservation of energy because everyone is now paying less per kWh (the part they can control) and more on the base charge (the part they cannot control). This effective increase also discourages solar installations, who often zero out their "per kWh" charges thanks to net metering, but always have to pay the base charge.

There may be negative impacts, but it is a more accurate way of paying for electricity. Paying for everything by kWh does not accurately reflect costs. If it's a problem for people on low incomes to pay more accurate prices for electricity then there's a problem with incomes, not the electricity pricing.

If you want to encourage efficiency (but discourage electrification of transportation) and internalize negative externalities with raised pricing, then it should be done with a zero sum tax surcharge, not pricing cross-subsidy.

 

[Mcgsp]

the cost of electricity fluctuates with predicating factors, such as demand where the supply is coming from. Oregon has been in severe drought according to my sister in law and state gets about 68% of its power from hydroelectric. With the drought, the utilities had to make up the difference, most likely from the grid shared by CA which would have greater costs for a variety of factors.

Now whether the Board of Utilities or whatever their name is in Oregon approves the full 7% is another matter. You can file with the board and complain that it is excessive with as much proof as you can muster and get others to cosign objections to the rate hike. As well as get as many individuals to go in person when the Board meets when discussing hike.

From what I read though Oregon is 46th in the country for energy costs. I know my brethren on long island, ny would love to pay what you pay, heck even half and they still would not be close to your costs.

 

[llninja]

How come I'm always the weirdo when it comes to finances, electric rates, fuel costs, etc. I'd love to see my electric rates triple or quadruple as that would make the ROI on a giant solar array and a few powerwalls finally make financial sense. Today, going solar requires me to pay more to be green. Just like when volt prices were close to MSRP, the ROI for buying a volt over any other ICE wasn't there. But cutting the volt price in half (thanks to a GM card rebate, state rebate, fed tax credit, and dealer haircut) compounded with fuel prices climbing to $4 per gallon in 2013, the ROI was finally there (until gas prices dropped).

Similarly, I'd like to see the government tax the heck out of fossil fuels. It will cause people to park their pickups and SUVs and run towards EVs. Sure lots of people will cry foul but it is what is best for the longevity of the planet. I've already switched my entire house to electric heating and cooling (geothermal). I'm working to switch my cars. Once that is complete, I'll wean myself from the coal burning electricity that my power company provides with self-installed solar panels and maybe even a wind turbine or two.

 

[Breezy]

$0.22/kWh here, average blended rate including all taxes and fees.

The incremental cost for charging the car is $0.23/kWh peak, $0.14 off-peak, including all taxes and fees.

This is all much cheaper than gas at $1.05/L (~$4/gallon).

 

[BAZINGA]

Here in southern Illinois with AmerenIP my all in cost for kW is just at 12 cents. I take the total $$$ of my bill and divide that by the total number of kW's reported.

I give up trying to figure all the individual line items of charges.

 

[ClarksonCote]

There may be negative impacts, but it is a more accurate way of paying for electricity. Paying for everything by kWh does not accurately reflect costs. If it's a problem for people on low incomes to pay more accurate prices for electricity then there's a problem with incomes, not the electricity pricing.

We don't really know what "accurately" reflects costs without looking into things more. In the case of National Grid, I don't believe they were increasing the base charge to accurately reflect costs. But either way, "accurate pricing" is not always the appropriate way to approach rates, is it? I think at that point it is just as subjective as everything else I've stated. I'm not a huge fan of policies that redistribute wealth or similar, but in the case of something as fundamental as electricity and the security that provides, I do think it's important to structure rates in a way that make electricity, overall, less expensive when you use less, and more expensive when you use more, down to, say, 150kWh per month.

If we only cared about accurately pricing any one item without considering the bigger picture, I guess we wouldn't have EV and solar tax credits either. The counter point to that is "well Big Oil gets subsidies!" At that point, we're in agreement that an individual product's "accurate" pricing is not always the ideal approach.

How come I'm always the weirdo when it comes to finances, electric rates, fuel costs, etc. I'd love to see my electric rates triple or quadruple as that would make the ROI on a giant solar array and a few powerwalls finally make financial sense.

You're not alone, I'm right there with you, haha. Although I'd rather see fuel costs increase instead of electricity rates. Significant electricity rate increases would be "Phase 2" of that "Evil plan" in my book, with Phase 1 being the significant increase of the cost of gasoline.

 

[jbakerjonathan]

<snip> ...take your total electric bill and divide by your total kWh used.

This is the only true way to determine your per kWh cost. This is what is coming out of your pocket.

Here, on Long Island, I am paying PSEGLI $0.20 -$0.21 per kWh when I figure the cost as ClarksonCote and I suggest. The variation occurs due to fluctuating costs for fuel to generate the electricity.

I hope that you all adopt this method of determining your cost per kWh. We then can compare apples to apples.

 

[alfon]

Here in northwestern Oregon we currently pay .112 - .117 per KWH. The price is determined on the amount of KWH's you use. The more you use, the more you pay per KWH. Just the opposite of the rest of anything else you buy.

Now this rate is the real 100% true rate and the only way you can obtain the true rate is all cost, your 100% total cost of your electric bill, the one you pay. Take the amount you actually pay, and divide that by the amount of KWH used. For instance your bill states you used 1500 KWH for the month. Your bill, with all total cost, the amount you actually pay is; $169.99. So divide $169.99 by the KWH use, 1500, and the final figure will be $.11332 / per KWH.

Some of our members who say the only pay .03 or so per KWH are perhaps not including all costs, (fee's, taxes, surcharges, etc.)

 

[Breezy]

Total bill divided by kWh consumed is how you determine your average cost, but it's not the cost of charging your car.

The cost for charging the car is the incremental cost, exclusive of fees you're paying anyway like basic service charges, etc.

My average cost is 22 cents/kwh ($220/990 kWh). My incremental cost is 14 cents/kWh if I charge off-peak. But I use a spreadsheet to calculate that because of all the per-kWh charges in addition to my power cost (8.7 cents), and because I'm a nerd.

 

[Steverino]

Here in southern Illinois with AmerenIP my all in cost for kW is just at 12 cents. I take the total $$$ of my bill and divide that by the total number of kW's reported.

I give up trying to figure all the individual line items of charges.

Same here. $0.1245 with all taxes and fees.

 

[Dutch]

Ultimately, it's a lot easier to generate your own electricity than it is to fractionate your own gasoline.