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Volt vs. Prius vs. C-Max Energi (the Good, the Bad and the Ugly)

16K views 25 replies 22 participants last post by  MTN Ranger 
#1 ·
Interesting write up assessing 3-way face off:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2012/07/29/terminal-velocity-ford-c-max-energi-to-vie-with-volt-prius/

Terminal Velocity: Ford C-Max Energi To Vie With Volt, Prius

One of the most interesting battles of the new car-model year will be a three-way title fight in the plug-in hybrid segment among Ford’s new C-Max Energi, the new Prius plug-in and the reigning champion (and only real contestant until now), the Chevrolet Volt.
 
#2 ·
Interesting how the PiP gets credited with Toyota's initial 15 mile promise while the Volt is tied to its EPA number. Also interesting the emphasis they are placing on gas tank size/gas range - not AFAIK generally a reason people choose between cars on.
 
#3 ·
They're all similar (ie. they plug in) but their usability range on EV are way different. We don't yet know the Energi's highway mpg either. I'd like them to do comparison charts among people with different commute-ranges. The 15, 30, 45 mile commute scenarios.
 
#4 ·
The most important part IMO, which I didn't see drawn out in the article at all, is the EV acceleration and speed limits. The article is all about EV range - without mentioned that using more than ~50 horsepower in the PiP forces the engine on (the C-Max is supposed to have a ~80 kW limit, the Volt is of course 110 kW,) and speeds over 62 mph force the PiP's engine on (the C-Max was quoted at 85 in one article, the Volt is the full 101 the car can reach.)
 
#5 ·
If this is supposed to be upbeat about plug-ins, it leaves me cold. 'The controversial Volt'??? Defaulting to the size of the gas tank? Most annoying, I guess is GM's reaction (at least in this article). Watching the Olympics, I see ad after ad for Chevy Silverados, but no commercials for the Volt. If they wanted to sell more, you'd think they would actually TRY to sell more.
 
#6 · (Edited)
The article does not go with a miles per dollar figure. It goes with the MPGe - Miles per gallon equivalent.
BUT, the price of a gallon of gas IS NOT equal to the price an an "equivalent to a gallon" electric energy.
In Quebec, a gallon of gas costs 10 times more than an equivalent quantity of electric energy.

Thus, the larger the battery, the larger the economy that is realized. If given with that light, the Volt does
surpass (and largely!) both other plugins.

Francois
B2653
 
#7 ·
Why is it impossible for reviewers to realize that the Prius and ford are electric only until you try to keep up with traffic, when they become gas burners? The EPA sticker for the Prius says 6 miles in small print, which is as far as they got before the gas engine turned on. Most drivers hit the gas at the first stoplight. I understand the ford is somewhat better , if similar. This is a big advantage for the volt, but it is as if the press cannot believe it when the volt proves superior to it's competition.
 
#9 ·
I'm with Austin. The Volt is an electric car with a range extender. The Leaf is an electric car (without a range extender). And the Prius and the Energi are ICE cars with an electric assist. The driving experience is so completely different I don't see the point of treating them as if they're the same. Claiming you have more range because your gas tank is larger is absurd. You don't want a large gas tank in the Volt because the gas would go stale. All Ford is saying is that the Energi will constantly use gas so this isn't an issue.
 
#10 ·
I did have pretty high hopes for Ford's C-Max Energi up until the specs came out. It seems to be more aligned to beat the PiP rather than the Volt. I do have to guess that it may sell to "GM-avoiders" who wouldn't want to test drive the Volt even if it offered more for the same money. In the end - more hybrids, the better.
 
#11 ·
Another thing that really wasn't discussed in the article is the size difference. As I recall, the C-Max is a little bigger than the Prius V. The C-Max may find some market room for folks looking for something that is more SUVish, or station wagon like, than is provided by the Volt or the PIP.
 
#13 ·
C-max is bigger in the seating areas, smaller (about half) the cargo area.
 
#24 ·
Bingo. I'll go with that. Pick the car that uses the least gas for your lifestyle.

For someone who has a 30 mile or longer commute to work, and does very few long weekend trips, get the Volt.

For someone who has a real short commute, and does a lot of long weekend trips, get the C-Max.

For someone who never does any long trips, get either the Focus EV or GM's Spark EV, both should be better than the Leaf.

C-Max is a better choice over the PiP.
 
#14 ·
I would be concerned with the Energi or the PiP and staying on electric only in daily highway driving, especially with the non-thermally managed PiP battery. At highway speeds (60-75mph), the Volt is discharging at ~0.83-1.25C rate. The PiP at 60mph will discharge at a ~3C rate without a TMS. At 75mph, the Energi will discharge ~2.9C rate. Combine that with a heat soaked battery and how many cycles will they provide? Where is the energy for thermal management of the Energi traveling at 75mph be coming from? What are the cell characteristics for their batteries?
 
#15 ·
I think this is the most important part of the article, when you sift through all the b.s.:

"The new cars will challenge Volt but also raise the visibility and credibility of the entire segment."

And, they might tie up a few more chargers! :(

People will now start comparing the models, invoking some lively discussions. It could put more of a hurting on Nissan, due to the popularity of the range of the new plug-in models.
 
#16 ·
I like seeing more PHEVs to market - it only popularizes the segment and helps people realize there is a choice to burning gasoline on a daily basis. It's also helping people get used to the whole idea of charging a car.

The C-Max range of only 20 miles is a killer for me. May work ok for some, but I would burn gas for half my commute everyday which really defeats the purpose of charging. And I think I'm probably like most people.

Volt still the winner IMO, but I think also the technology and range will move forward quickly - especially with competition.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I like seeing more PHEVs to market - it only popularizes the segment and helps people realize there is a choice to burning gasoline on a daily basis.
Agreed, and I think the big winner in all of that is going to be... the Volt. Not so much the current Volt, but the next legitimately new Volt. Whether the presumed (Volt 1.5) 2014 will be different enough for people to take a fresh look at the car, or that will wait until the true Volt 2.0 remains to be seen. But then in a post-election world, a visibly freshened, improved, and arguably destigmatized Volt will revive broad interest in the car, and it's almost certain to maintain its superiority to the competition.

For this reason, I think if GM doesn't have some significant powertrain developments and fresh sheetmetal out for 2014, they'll be missing a very big opportunity. And there's the wildcard, reasonable chance that (unfortunately) accelerating climate change and extreme weather will get a lot more people thinking about their oil consumption habits. Such a trend combined with some resulting boosts in government incentives (like getting more states on the bandwagon) could see GM in a position where they can't even fill demand for the Volt for years out. Either way, I think Voltec demand will increase steadily at either a linear or geometric rate if GM stays truly committed to the product and concept.
 
#21 ·
I'm wondering how much confusion this will add to an already confusing (in the minds of a majority of the population) segment. I've already found myself answering boatloads of questions regarding the Volt, and the sad truth is, most people don't even know what to make of it. I think many people (maybe even owners) still struggle with what the standard Prius is. Now we have a plug-in version. Until someone releases an informational campaign (objective, without corporate endorsement), most people are going to have a hard time changing over to any of these vehicles.
 
#22 ·
I can understand Ford using a smaller battery to get the price down but the Toyota makes no sense to me at all. It seems to me to be just an extra expensive Prius with not enough significant gains over a regular Prius. The Ford has, if not as good a CD range as the Volt, at least has a CD range that allows for city commutes.

I get frustrated with all the new models because I really think they are going the wrong way with CD ranges. I don't think I've ever heard a Volt owner say I wish my car had just 10 miles less CD range! I live in the country and I wish my Volt had a 70mile CD range. I've been able to get CD ranges in the low 50's on a regular bases in the warm weather but I often have to drive the last few miles of my running around on gas. If I only had a little more range I would only have to use gas on long range road trips!
 
#23 ·
That's why, in my opinion, the Volt is superior to the other two. The Volt is, currently, the best halfway point between EV and ICE. The others don't go far enough. With current tech and financial limitations, I think the 40-50 mile AER is the best mark for hybrids to be shooting for. As Li battery prices decrease (and hopefully capacity goes up), I think the expectation will be for every hybrid to have a minimum 80-100 mile AER.
 
#25 ·
I'd call the FCME a poor 2nd runner up. It's main "achievement" is that it's EV range is better than the PiP (6-11). Not impressed. Not impressed that if I need to floor it to get on the highway that the engine comes on. Ford, Toyota, Honda ect all saw what GM & Nissan built and this was the best they could do? But, it's going to sell, no doubt about it.

I should mention that I do like the FFE, but it'd be better if they did more with it instead of making it so similar to the Leaf - although they didn't forgo the TMS like Nissan.
 
#26 · (Edited)
http://www.plugincars.com/ford-c-max-energi-operates-pure-electric-car-first-20-miles-123780.html

"Ford gives C-Max Energi drivers the opportunity to go about 20 miles without using a single drop of gasoline. “When you go into EV Now mode, you are literally locking out the engine pull-up, and driving on battery performance,” said Davis. “Even if you go to fast acceleration, almost a wide-open throttle situation, you will get full battery capability, and we will prevent the engine from coming on.”

"The "EV Now" feature makes the C-Max Energi much more like a Chevy Volt, Berman says. C-Max Energi drivers also have the option of using its "EV Later" button, which is similar to the Volt's Mountain Mode, to save battery power for later use, or they can keep the plug-in in "EV Auto" mode, in which the car operates more like the conventional C-Max hybrid."

"During full-throttle events below 85 mph, and while in EV Now mode, a dashboard prompt will appear, asking the driver to continue in all-electric mode or to switch into the EV automatic mode."

It sounds like as long as you are in EV Now mode and under 85 MPH, it will stay in electric mode.
 
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