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Finally, I think the public is educated on these vehicles, and getting their facts straight. I didn't here a single thing in that segment that was incorrect.

The funniest part is when Eric nearly choked when asked "What is Toyota's next generation vehicle after the Prius?" He had to admit that Toyota has only announced continued parallel hybrid development (until the recent promise to offer a Li Ion plug-in), so Toyota's going to keep floundering until they show off a new concept vehicle.

I agree that Toyota has the field to themselves until 2010, 2011, but 2012 should show a massive movement towards GM. As GM then propagates their series hybrid configuration across vehicles, they will eat away at the whole American market, taking share from Ford and Chrysler in particular, and even some from Honda and Toyota.
 

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"I agree that Toyota has the field to themselves until 2010, 2011, but 2012 should show a massive movement towards GM." - Hendler

How "massive" can this movement be if GM only builds 60,000 in 2012? Answer: Not.
 

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How "massive" can this movement be if GM only builds 60,000 in 2012? Answer: Not.
Agreed. Until GM boosts production (which may not happen for a few years after 2011), Toyota will still take the lead in hybrid sales.
 

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daggie,

Did you hear Eric's admission that GM has leapfrogged Toyota with a vehicle that is actually an EV with a range extender? Everybody see it now - ev er y bo dy.
Sure. He said that what GM may deliver, in teensy quantities, at an enormous price, in 2011, is an advance. Well, I would hope so but it remains to be seen. He also said he wouldn't count Toyota out and that Toyota would be continuing to develop their current vehicle. And he didn't mention that Toyota is just about doubling Prius manufacturing capacity in the near future. But it's true.

They don't see the Volt taking hold for years... plenty of time for Toyota to leapfrog GM. As they did in 1997.

I also heard these key phrases:

"...the keyword is potentially... it's [Volt] a long way off."

"...the hypothetical volt..."

"... Toyota's market cap is 24 time GM's..."
 

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They don't see the Volt taking hold for years... plenty of time for Toyota to leapfrog GM. As they did in 1997.
The only tech left is the PFCV, and Toyota is in the same boat as with the HEV - NO plug. Toyota is offering an FCV, but people will demand that they get some range derived from the grid, as that is the cheapest. Toyota can't leapfrog the plug, unless they have long life batteries for rapid recharge - mutually exclusive goals.

Toyota's market cap is going to nosedive if they don't announce next gen vehicles soon. There North American sales are hurting:

Link

Honda is looking good though - let's see if they capitalize on Toyota's miss-steps.
 

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"Toyota's market cap is going to nosedive if they don't announce next gen vehicles soon." - Hendler

Toyota's market cap isn't going to crash because they aren't announcing their 2011 lineup today. GM's done nothing but talk about their 2011 product, the Volt (even though it will ship in Bentley-like volumes) and the market hasn't rewarded them for that, has it?

Honda is looking relatively better but it's because Toyota took a potentially profitable risk in big pickups that Honda (perhaps wisely) chose to avoid. This won't be a disaster for Toyota, as they can use the plant for other vehicles but hindsight is 20/20 and I can't say I blame them for trying to pick up some profits in the pickup business.

Toyot will sell its 2,000,000th hybrid before the first Volt hits the street.
 

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Honda is looking good though - let's see if they capitalize on Toyota's miss-steps.
I said that last week also. Honda CEO is wrong about the public's acceptance of new technology and the cost differential, I still feel that way, but Honda is certainly positioned better than Toyota or anyone right now.

There niche is inexpensive, high mileage gas engined cars. Except for that Ridgeline knockoff of the Avalanche, of course. Their car designs are just bland, IMO. I don't understand why the car press continually gives them a pass. I guess their editors all drive Hondas. Pontiac's Aztek was the "ugliest thing ever produced", but the Honda Element was "quirky and unique"? They were both butt-ugly but Honda didn't get called on it.

Lets hope the Volt gets fair treatment.
 

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Honda is looking relatively better but it's because Toyota took a potentially profitable risk in big pickups that Honda (perhaps wisely) chose to avoid. This won't be a disaster for Toyota, as they can use the plant for other vehicles but hindsight is 20/20 and I can't say I blame them for trying to pick up some profits in the pickup business.
Why is it that when Toyota puts out big trucks and SUV's, its OK and "hindsight is 20/20" and all that, but when it comes to the domestics, they were supposed to see this current gas crisis coming? Just because they have the Prius?

Is this one car, the one choice Toyota made to produce (perhaps wisely) the Prius the only thing that separates the GM approach and perception from the Toyota approach and perception?

Doesn't just about everyone agree that the "quality gap" has all but vanished? So is this one car all that really separates GM and Toyota in reality, at least in the U.S.?

Toyota looks smart right now with the Prius, but I would prefer to call them lucky.
Honda looks smart too. Except for not joining the EV race.
GM looks smart also, for trying to change the game in their favor.

I think GM has the biggest potential of them all. Their biggest challenge is to get the public perception to work for them instead of against them. :)
 

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"Why is it that when Toyota puts out big trucks and SUV's, its OK and "hindsight is 20/20" and all that, but when it comes to the domestics, they were supposed to see this current gas crisis coming?" - MetrologyFirst

Because Toyota doesn't RELY on that big truck to make money. Or the big SUVs... look at the number of Sequoias they sold last month... under a thousand and that was a big jump from last year. They're not a "Johnny One-Note" in the auto business. They have several vehicles that GM can't touch on fuel economy:

The Yaris
The Corolla
The Prius

Never mind the EPA numbers, look at what customers get on the road... GM isn't even in the room. And they make money selling small cars.

"Doesn't just about everyone agree that the "quality gap" has all but vanished? So is this one car all that really separates GM and Toyota in reality, at least in the U.S.?"

Not even close. On TrueDelta.com, the Prius - even with it's whizbang tech and in its first model year - consistently is at the head of the pack in reliability. The rest of Toyota merely does very well. GM's still got shining examples of crud. Go over there and check the CTS numbers... that's a premium car and it is getting horrible results.

"Toyota looks smart right now with the Prius, but I would prefer to call them lucky." - MetrologyFirst

Toyota makes their own luck. Look at the upcoming Volt and the current hybrids... negligible quantities on all. In FastLane, Lutz promised to be "bold." Where's the "bold" in selling a game-changing automobile in dribs and drabs?
 

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They have several vehicles that GM can't touch on fuel economy:

The Yaris
The Corolla
The Prius

Never mind the EPA numbers, look at what customers get on the road... GM isn't even in the room.
I did look. Nothing impressed me much about the site. The Corolla mpg numbers were no better than what people got with a Cobalt. I didn't see any data about how expensive the reported repairs were, by comparison. Looking at the individual data, the repairs listed on Chevy vehicles were generally much less expensive than for the Toyotas.

A Prius oil change cost someone $75? Mine costs me $15. Over 100000 miles thats about $2000 more to change the oil in the Prius than my Grand Am. Thats a lot in the bank. :)

In fact, @32mpg for the Grand Am and 50mpg for the Prius, thats almost half of the gas savings @$4/gallon. Assuming Prius gets 50mpg. :)
 

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"The Corolla mpg numbers were no better than what people got with a Cobalt." - MetrologyFirst

On the EPA website, the real-world feedback is 33mpg for the Corolla and 29mpg for the Cobalt (automatics - no one has yet reported XFE fuel economy).

You're right... they're identical.

"A Prius oil change cost someone $75?" - MetrologyFirst

I get my oil changed at the Toyota dealer (he does a better job than Instee-Loob). $30. Same price for the Prius. It doesn't matter what you drive, someone will find a way to overcharge you for it. As you well know.

Of course, a Prius ordinarily goes a long way between oil changes because the engine doesn't run all the time. And the brakes last quite a long time... regenerative braking reduces brake wear by quite a bit. What's that worth?
 

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Dagwood,

I only went to the site you suggested and the real world data showed nearly identical mpg performance. Sorry. I didn't make it up.

It also showed under the repair records that someone paid 75 bucks a labeled it an oil change at 3000 miles. Once again, only going by the data at the site you suggested.

And no, I change my own oil, thank you. I invest my own time in my cars instead of paying someone else to do the simple things. Maybe thats why they mean more to me. And I only change my oil every 6-7000 miles anyway. Anyone with an understanding of maintenance knows every 3000 is silly. I used the 3000 number for the calculations. Real world the cost is even less for me. But I didn't want to make my argument look too one-sided. :)

The fact that the data at the TrueDelta.com site is apparently wrong doesn't give me any confidence that anything else there is accurate either. Just more proof to me that if you let a website or a car magazine tell you what to do, and not take your own responsibility for your car buying decisions, you are naive and can be easily misled.

If a Prius headlight repair costs you 900 bucks (look it up, its listed there too) and two Cobalt repairs cost a total of $500, the website says the Prius is twice as reliable. And its a better car. Interesting approach.
 

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"Just more proof to me that if you let a website or a car magazine tell you what to do, and not take your own responsibility for your car buying decisions, you are naive and can be easily misled." - MetrologyFirst

I hear something like that often enough from GM fanboys. The alternative, of course, is to buy your own fleets of cars and record expenses. Thanks, but I think I'll just pay for a magazine and get similar information for a lot less money.

Of course, I DO have my own fleet to monitor... and so far, no repairs. Let's see... 4 Toyotas, 14.9 years in use, 168K miles driven, average age at purchase 5 years, average mileage at purchase, 61K, zero repairs. I like it. Oil changes - same price as for a Cobalt.

If you disagree with TrueDelta's methodology, you can always go to CR. Or start your own web site. TrueDelta does explain the rationale.
 

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Dagwood,

I only went to the site you suggested and the real world data showed nearly identical mpg performance. Sorry. I didn't make it up.

It also showed under the repair records that someone paid 75 bucks a labeled it an oil change at 3000 miles. Once again, only going by the data at the site you suggested.

And no, I change my own oil, thank you. I invest my own time in my cars instead of paying someone else to do the simple things. Maybe thats why they mean more to me. And I only change my oil every 6-7000 miles anyway. Anyone with an understanding of maintenance knows every 3000 is silly. I used the 3000 number for the calculations. Real world the cost is even less for me. But I didn't want to make my argument look too one-sided. :)
What? You're comparing changing the price of your oil to the price of some mythological $75 oil-changing dealership changing it and then saying you don't want to seem to one-sided? Wouldn't it make more sense to make the comparison using the same oil-changer? (That's the tactic all those radio show talkers use. Set up a false comparison then compare away.) So, if it were you changing your Prius oil, it would save you more since the ICE is used less, no?

I have to spend about 6 hours driving a Cobalt tomorrow. After spending five minutes in it today, I'm really not looking forward to it. I'm not even sure if it is equal to the Kia I drove for 8 hours a week ago. Not to say all Chevys are this lame. I drove an Impala around a bit last week which was pretty decent.
 

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Of course, I DO have my own fleet to monitor... and so far, no repairs. Let's see... 4 Toyotas, 14.9 years in use, 168K miles driven, average age at purchase 5 years, average mileage at purchase, 61K, zero repairs. I like it. Oil changes - same price as for a Cobalt.

If you disagree with TrueDelta's methodology, you can always go to CR. Or start your own web site. TrueDelta does explain the rationale.
I also have some cars to monitor. I had a 1990 Beretta GT. 260,000 miles, 13 yrs, almost no repairs. I wish I still had my record book on it to give an exact account. Current car 2003 Pontiac Grand Am GT, 120,000 miles so far, (1) $350 fuel pump repair. Other than that, perfect. Both got, and get me, over 30 mpg. I guess I managed to get the only two good cars GM made recently.

As far as TrueDelta.com, you suggested it as support for your points. I never heard of it before. If you don't like the data they have there, don't promote it. I don't care one way or the other.

Cost of ownership is more than just repair costs, BTW. If you spend $500 a year on "routine maintenance", that's adds up in a hurry. But again, if you think of a car as an appliance, taking it to the dealership for oil changes doesn't surprise me. It just means my cost of ownership is less. Since I historically drive a car into the ground, I don't care about resale, either. So my GM cars are less expensive to start with, better styled, reliable and cheaper to fix and, in the end, a better deal. Sorry.
 

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So, if it were you changing your Prius oil, it would save you more since the ICE is used less, no?
I will never be caught changing Prius oil, I can assure you.

I was only using data from the website that was suggested to me as proof of Toyota's dominance over GM. I can't help what the Prius owners reported. I just did a few comparisons to "real life Prius owners". It's not my fault someone spent 75 bucks on an oil change. For all I know, thats the going rate.

The comparison I made just goes to show that the Prius savings are owner dependent. For me, an easily repairable, less expensive repaired, GM car is just as economical as a Prius in the hands of a car novice. Not to mention my car will look better. :)
 

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Volt is a scam, GM is appeasing us.

I do not believe I will see a volt on a showfloor in 2011.

I do not believe I will see a volt for sale cheaper than a mid-size sedan plus 12 years of fuel at $6 a gallon.

I do not believe any auto manufacturer wants to build a volt style car.

I believe Toyota will be on top with the prius for the next ten years but that sales will not be outstanding even with high fuel prices because of its high cost and battery replacement cost.
 
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