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I dont know, but many Voltheads are worse.. and they talk down the Leaf all the time. The Leafers seem to be the most easy going of the lot. I'm impartial, I hang around all three communities.
 

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I guess some people do not like finding out that they no longer have the "best" technology available, or the most economical car to drive around. (for short distances, at least)

I am sure that before long, there will be cars available that are superior to the Volt. Then we will have to decide whether to be as "petty" as some of the trolls are.

Jerry, in Fresno, #536 with 2600 miles and 5.6 gallons so far
 

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I dont know, but many Voltheads are worse.. and they talk down the Leaf all the time. The Leafers seem to be the most easy going of the lot. I'm impartial, I hang around all three communities.
Must be a different set of Leafers. In my experience they're rather doctrinaire, self righteous, and dogmatic. This week they were whining that Volts were taking "their" parking places, which in their entitled minds was an outrage because ... the Volt has an ICE. Also lots of talk about how the Leaf needs to show Volt drivers who is boss with their vastly superior acceleration (not). The biggest thing though is all the spewing of hate for GM. That's beyond me.

Finally, anytime anyone has a problem with the car, or with Nissan, it's like red meat in the water. Way too much "The King Can Do No Wrong" for my taste.

On balance I think the Volters are better because the level of technical expertise is higher, which helps smooth out the bias. You just don't see that many interesting technical discussions amongst Leafers. True we have Stuart but they have Tronz (or whatever his name is) plus a few more like him. (This obviously does not include EVNOW who posts here). I will say though that since the Leaf has had a few production and technical problems they've gotten more realistic.

IMHO of course.
 

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I agree that Volt drivers should not use up the few charging stations available, because the Leaf drivers may really "need" charging, we don't.

Jerry #536 in Fresno
 

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I also agree that Volt owners should let the Leaf owners use the chargers... as long as the Leaf stays on the other side of planet Earth.

Raymond
 

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I agree that Volt drivers should not use up the few charging stations available, because the Leaf drivers may really "need" charging, we don't.
This wasn't really relevant. The charger was provided by an employer. AFAIK the Leaf driver had plenty of range. He just wanted to charge for free. So need had nothing to do with it, and I can't see any reason why the Volt should give up a spot for him. Assuming his commute was outside his range, my suggestion would be that he needs to get a different car or a different job. You can't put yourself in a vulnerable position and then expect everyone to accommodate you. You have to be responsible.

From an environmental standpoint, you can make a good argument that the Volt should be given priority. The lower EV range of the Volt and the possibility that the ICE can come on means that allowing the Volt to charge will displace more gasoline and create less pollution by avoiding a cold start. IOW opportunity charging for the Volt is more desirable not less. This was ignored by the mindset that the Leaf driver was morally superior and hence "entitled" to the charging spot.

A meet up or something where the Leaf would use the range is entirely different. No argument from me on this. But this should be an exception not the rule.
 

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I say simply: "First come, first served". Should a Volt driver not connect to top off when the charger is not being used and just assume some one driving a Leaf or other BEV will show up eventually and plug-in? No, if it is available when either arrives, they should plug-in.
 

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GEtting Along

I see Volts, Leafs (well, one so far), the old EV Rav 4s, and even a Mini E charging together at LAX. Everyone can get along.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think the Leaf, the Prius, Ford Focus Hybrid, etc. all represent a trend to be encouraged. Owners of these vehicles are all on the same "side", they have simply picked a different solution to address their personal needs. Unfortunately, based on their comments, many seem to think that the Volt must be denigrated. Perhaps because of all the attention and awards the Volt is attracting. Could it be simple ev-envy?
 

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I think it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that a Volt should give way to a BEV (or not use at all) at a public or semi-public charger just because a BEV might be in "greater need". A BEV driver should NEVER put themselves in a position of need of a public charger. Never. What if it's taken by another BEV rather than an EREV? Who is that person going to blame then?
 

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I think a lot of the "friction" started when GM began marketing the Volt as a battery-electric vehicle with a "generator" and then later revealed that it was really more of a parallel-hybrid with a larger battery pack and motor. I saw the Prius fans really take hold of this little "definition" debate. I saw a lot of LEAF fans do the same too, but the Prius has a much larger base to spread information through.

As a LEAF owner and member of the local electric vehicle association (Oregon Electric Vehicle Association), I'm thrilled about anything that can plug in and use electricity as form of transportation.

With public charging, it definitely is a first-come, first-serve situation, however we need to all work together. I think this is one of the primary reasons the Public Charging Protocol was developed and suggest all EV owners adopt it.

Personally, if I'm plugged into a charging station, but know that I've got enough juice to get where I need to go next, I would have no problems at all if a Volt unplugged my car to plug theirs in, my Charging Protocol Card will be marked with that indication and if someone had a question, my cell phone number is on the card as well.

Also, if my LEAF indicates it already has a full charge, why shouldn't someone else be able to unplug it to plug in their vehicle? I would hope Volt owners have the same opinion, but there is a technical issue (alarm) making the process kinda annoying if their vehicles are unplugged... If I was a Volt owner, I would really press GM to fix that issue in order to better support public charging.
 

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The Parallel vs. Series thing regarding the Volt is so frustrating. People act like GM "cheated" or something, when actually they made the car MORE COMPLICATED to get the HIGHEST EFFICIENCY in all cases.

It would have been easier just to leave the car as a series hybrid. But instead, by allowing the ICE to contribute to the drivetrain at high speeds when out of battery power, they added a few MPGs in the ~70 MPH CD mode.

Anyone who complains about this either doesn't have a clue (about the technology or why we even want electric vehicles), or is just biased and looking for reasons to hate.
 

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I think a lot of the "friction" started when GM began marketing the Volt as a battery-electric vehicle with a "generator" and then later revealed that it was really more of a parallel-hybrid with a larger battery pack and motor
I take issue with broad brush statements like this.To say as such it's clear that you understand the Volt powertrain about as much as these very same Prius enthusiasts.

The reality is what makes the Volt different from what is being suggested here is somewhat beyond the scope of most end-users, armchair engineers, and your average run-of-the-mill EV enthusiasts. Input split, compound spilt, output split- very important and exclusive aspects of EV drive design, but merely semantics to someone that just wants to ridicule what the Volt IS as compared to what they THOUGHT or ASSUMED it would be.

GM has never mislead anyone, and didn't "market" it in any way as you suggest. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) people made their own assumptions about what an EREV was or is. But doesnt preclude the fact that the Volt IS an EREV and NOT a parallel hybrid (or even a PHEV for that matter ) and the rationale of which really hasnt changed from a purely engineering perspective. The fact that they both have 2 motor generator motors and a battery is about where the similarity ends.
Either you "get it" or you don't.

However, assuming someone has a degree in engineering or at least sufficient electro-mechanical background knowledge/experience to the extent that they can sufficiently digest the material, I would suggest reading up on something a bit more definitive than Priuschat fodder, like perhaps the SAE papers on the Voltec system recently published by GM. (It's SAE World Congress week so these just happen to be on the tip of my tongue...)

A good start would be 2001-01-0887 "The GM Voltec Multi-Mode Electric Transaxle" (Miller,Holmes, Conlon, Savagian). (actually there's a few dozen other papers being delivered this week on the Voltec design)

So clearly ANYONE saying the Volt is "a parallel hybrid with a larger battery and motor" merely misunderstands exactly what aspects sets this innovative powertrain apart from both BEVs, HEVs, or even "typical" blended PHEV designs.
I'm sorry but I'll reiterate: You either "get it" or you don't.

Oh and by the way Nissan delivered 1 or 2 papers on the Leaf this week as well, so you may find some nuggets of data within them useful over in your MyLeaf forums. You can look and search HERE

JMO
WopOnTour
 
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