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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A study came out saying that CO2 emissions to build a battery for a tesla can emit up to 8 years of CO2 driving.
I am not sure if the study factors the emissions created in getting gas into a tank of a combustion engine though.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/20/tesla-car-battery-production-releases-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-gasoline-driving/


However, the article makes a good case for PHEV rather that BEV where we can compare apples to apples.
If the car has a range extender, then it needs a smaller battery.

A volt battery is 1/4 the size of a Tesla 3 with the same range and the average driver will run on average 85% of their kilometers on EV mode. A tesla 3 battery is 3/4 the size of the battery used in the study. therefore if a Tesla 3 battery contributes 6 years of CO2, the Volt battery contributes 1.5 years comparatively.

The average extra kilometers for a Volt on gas will contribute another 1.2 years over it's lifetime (total 2.7 years) making the net CO2 more than twice environmentally friendly than that of the Tesla 3.

So the impact makes a case not to carry around such a big battery and cheat on some gas in exchange until better battery production technology is achieved.

Hope to see Voltec reincarnated into more models!
 

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The linked article seems to be on a climate change denier web site. The source article they are summarizing is in (I think) Swedish. I don’t have time mess about with Google translate, but I’m pretty skeptical about the summary. These sorts of articles seem to come up on a regular basis and never, to my knowledge, withstand scrutiny.
 

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The last I read from the US Dept of Energy is a maximum of six years payback for any EV, including future EVs such as the Rizan pickup and SUV. Yes, the carbon emissions up front are higher but the elimination of tailpipe carbon emissions pays back in six years. The US DoE study included ground to tailpipe emissions. If the electricity for an EV is generated with nuclear, solar, or wind the payback is at most four years. This study did not include the COx emissions from power plant construction.
 

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<snip>
A volt battery is 1/4 the size of a Tesla 3 with the same range and the average driver will run on average 85% of their kilometers on EV mode. A tesla 3 battery is 3/4 the size of the battery used in the study. therefore if a Tesla 3 battery contributes 6 years of CO2, the Volt battery contributes 1.5 years comparatively.
These studies all seem to ignore the giant block of metal that is an ICE engine. So they ding a battery because it takes stuff to manufacture, but ignore the impact of making the ICE. True apples to apples would look at ICE+big transmission+fuel vs motor+battery+electricity (and probably more factors I'm glossing over for simplicity). I imagine someone has done overall comparisons like this, but there just seems to be so many hit pieces out there that have glaring flaws, often on purpose to further an agenda.
 

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I recently read an article to the contrary of this. I can't find the reference anymore. But they also mentioned that the batteries from old EVs can be recycled.

And the PHEV is hardly dead regardless. Ford seems to be going full steam ahead with their latest announcements.
 

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Are they including all the emissions required to make an ICE? They aren't made all in one place. Different parts are made by different companies at different places in the country, then shipped (by semi) to a central assembly plant. Very difficult (not impossible) to determine total CO2 so easier to just eliminate it from equation.
 

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I drive a Volt, and probably eventually will get a Tesla not because of environmental issues, but because I like how the product performs and the fact that it is higher tech. The less expensive energy is a bonus. The first time I ran across someone talking about cow methane being the reason for them being a vegetarian, it was a friend who owns several large multi-million dollar homes, has a gas guzzling boat, jet skis etc., flies on planes including private ones etc..

The climate change and climate denier stances have become so polarized and politicized that it is impossible to get actual data out of either side. There are some interesting points on both sides. On one hand ICE has pollution from combustion of the fuel etc., but on the other side the supply chain and the amount of energy to get the raw materials for batteries etc. is a consideration as well.

Personally I like the fact that electric cars have instant acceleration and, even if the overall pollution is the same (tough to actually know) it does reduce the concentration of it in the cities where I happen to live.....plus because a lot of people are not driving electric I can pay a little bit more and use the HOV lane in Atlanta :).
 

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Only if it is my Volt... it's more efficient than a Tesla at lifetime of 146 MPGe for 78K miles now.

In the academic parlance, the Tesla and the Volt should be compared using Life Cycle Analysis. The advantage of this is that each component, nuts and bolts, would include the agreed upon methods of counting the total energy and carbon used to manufacture the component. It's a cradle to grave analysis. It included the transportation, the mining, all the related equipment's contributions in producing each component for the whole car, then the total energy and carbon emissions associated in using the car until the day it is put out of service.
 

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I drive a Volt, and probably eventually will get a Tesla not because of environmental issues, but because I like how the product performs and the fact that it is higher tech. The less expensive energy is a bonus. The first time I ran across someone talking about cow methane being the reason for them being a vegetarian, it was a friend who owns several large multi-million dollar homes, has a gas guzzling boat, jet skis etc., flies on planes including private ones etc..

The climate change and climate denier stances have become so polarized and politicized that it is impossible to get actual data out of either side. There are some interesting points on both sides. On one hand ICE has pollution from combustion of the fuel etc., but on the other side the supply chain and the amount of energy to get the raw materials for batteries etc. is a consideration as well.
How much energy is that. It is 5 times cheaper to mine lithium than recycle it (hence only 5% of lithium is recycled). Other interesting facts are, there is enough lithium to last the next 350 years of expected demand. While lithium is found in low concentrations, it is not a rare element. Another tidbit is the US government has determined lithium ion batteries are non toxic and can be safely disposed of in dump sites.
 

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Only if it is my Volt... it's more efficient than a Tesla at lifetime of 146 MPGe for 78K miles now.
I mean, not really. All that proves is you driving your Volt are more efficient than the EPA driving a Tesla. If you drove the Model 3 the same way, you'd have a higher number than you driving your Volt. So really, the Tesla is more efficient.
 

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I mean, not really. All that proves is you driving your Volt is more efficient than the EPA driving a Tesla. If you drove the Model 3, you'd have a higher number than you driving your Volt. So really, the Tesla is more efficient.
Not proven. Get on the freeway in the EV Capital of the US, California, during rush hour commuting. Will a Volt go further per kWh? GM does not exaggerate their range. The high regen (60kW), blended brakes, and high level of engineering in a Volt could in fact prove to be more efficient in real world driving.

As I found out today, I can slaughter the EPA rating of a 2019 Volt on a typical highway commuter situation. By almost 50% higher hwy than advertised. Tesla tends to exaggerate, GM tends towards understatement.

Edmunds: https://twitter.com/edmunds/status/1060653451229700102
 

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All of this analysis can get really out of hand. IMO - many of these studies come out from people looking to shore up titles and degrees. There's too many ways to twist them to find "real" Impacts.


The best thing about the Volt is that it's Organic. When it's in ICE mode, it consumes gasoline, made up of sweet, pure organic molecules. Then I charge it with electricity, I'm using a product from the coal-fired power plant, which also extracts all the goodness and organic molecules from coal to give me the power. It's all good - purely Organic.
 

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... There's too many ways to twist them to find "real" Impacts.


The best thing about the Volt is that it's Organic. When it's in ICE mode, it consumes gasoline, made up of sweet, pure organic molecules. Then I charge it with electricity, I'm using a product from the coal-fired power plant, which also extracts all the goodness and organic molecules from coal to give me the power. It's all good - purely Organic.
True, and the site linked by the OP has a historic agenda. I won't bother with it.

But your Organic statement...
Surely you understand the concept of fossil fuels, no?
Carbon that has been confined under ground combines with O² when burned to form even more tonnage of CO² which is then spewed into the air, without a care, worry or problem, according to the fossil fuel purveyors, and that site.

So how do you describe an EV that is only charged off a home Solar system?
Clean? Sustainable? Zero Emission? Cheap/free to drive?
 

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But your Organic statement...
Surely you understand the concept of fossil fuels, no?
Carbon that has been confined under ground combines with O² when burned to form even more tonnage of CO² which is then spewed into the air, without a care, worry or problem, according to the fossil fuel purveyors, and that site.
That sounds really dirty. :( The missing part where the carbon forms long chains and becomes "organic" sounds a lot more wonderful. :)

I like to strive for being energy efficient. I find that it's a really stable platform to stand on, even when the green one gets a little wobbly.


So how do you describe an EV that is only charged off a home Solar system?
Clean? Sustainable? Zero Emission? Cheap/free to drive?
Really supper efficient and pioneering!
 

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Getting back on the original topic. I also have read numerous articles saying how "bad" lith batteries are for the environment. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. The one thing that I find really interesting in this debate is the significant omission of the impact to the environment of the full process of extracting oil from the ground, refining it into gasoline, moving it to distant storage locations and then finally transporting it to local gas stations.
 

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Getting back on the original topic. I also have read numerous articles saying how "bad" lith batteries are for the environment. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. The one thing that I find really interesting in this debate is the significant omission of the impact to the environment of the full process of extracting oil from the ground, refining it into gasoline, moving it to distant storage locations and then finally transporting it to local gas stations.
The US government has found lithium batteries non toxic and can safely be disposed of in land fill sites. You can't get more environmentally friendly than that. It states that in a government website (don't have link off hand). As for mining the stuff, don't know but they use huge settling ponds. Lithium is very light being at the upper left of the periodic table and there isn't very much lithium in a lithium ion battery..
 

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Until we can get a full lifetime analysis of all inputs for each type it's all anecdotal for both sides. For fully electric cars, you would need to take into account everything from the electricity, the energy for the electricity, line losses if it's from the grid, or total impact of the manufacture of the solar cells, impact of the fluids that do need to be changed etc.. Then for Gas you have the oil changes, Gas, manufacture of the engine, cost to produce and get all of these consumables to the consumer, cost for the extra service infrastructure etc..

This is why I go back to just liking the product and cheaper energy cost vs doing it for the ecology.....it may indeed be better for the environment, but there doesn't seem to be solid data on that side.....likewise there is not solid data to refute that claim.
 

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Until we can get a full lifetime analysis of all inputs for each type it's all anecdotal for both sides. For fully electric cars, you would need to take into account everything from the electricity, the energy for the electricity, line losses if it's from the grid, or total impact of the manufacture of the solar cells, impact of the fluids that do need to be changed etc.. Then for Gas you have the oil changes, Gas, manufacture of the engine, cost to produce and get all of these consumables to the consumer, cost for the extra service infrastructure etc..

This is why I go back to just liking the product and cheaper energy cost vs doing it for the ecology.....it may indeed be better for the environment, but there doesn't seem to be solid data on that side.....likewise there is not solid data to refute that claim.
Yeah, those kinds of arguments always kill me. Or criticizing a study for failing to make a completely immeasurable comparison -- like whether it's more environmentally friendly to burn off several thousand gallons of gas or to manufacture and dispose of one lithium ion battery. One is clearly harmful to the O-Zone/atmosphere, the other is arguably harmful to soil health and maybe groundwater. How can one compare those impacts? Also love the "it's tied to a partially coal powered grid argument, so there's no difference!" argument. The research indicates that even on a majority coal grid, most electric cars produce far fewer carbon emissions than even the most efficient gas hybrid (non-plug in) vehicles. So yes, lithium mining is not good for the environment. And sure, it would be better if all of us got to work on wooden bicycles powered by our legs and ham and cheese sandwiches (or, given the carbon emissions in the meat industry, black bean and rice soy wraps or something, idk) and we know that's not a realistic expectation in 2019. So yes, while lithium mining and disposal might be "bad", so is oil drilling, refining, and delivery, and it's all a matter of degrees of improvement, which nobody seems to have been able to synthesize yet. When we can't do that, the best we can do is try to make a study that isolates those variables from the equation.
 

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Yeah, those kinds of arguments always kill me. Or criticizing a study for failing to make a completely immeasurable comparison -- like whether it's more environmentally friendly to burn off several thousand gallons of gas or to manufacture and dispose of one lithium ion battery. One is clearly harmful to the O-Zone/atmosphere, the other is arguably harmful to soil health and maybe groundwater. How can one compare those impacts?
And THAT is presuming the batty just goes into a landfill. Dunno about where you are, but Li Ion batteries appear to be largely recyclable.

Also love the "it's tied to a partially coal powered grid argument, so there's no difference!" argument. The research indicates that even on a majority coal grid, most electric cars produce far fewer carbon emissions than even the most efficient gas hybrid (non-plug in) vehicles.
And that.... is changeable. A gas car is probably going to run on gas forever. it's a nontrivial amount of work to make it run on something else than "hydrocarbon liquid fuel". Electric cars CAN be run on coal. But they can also be run on natural gas or nukes or solar or wind or tide power or water wheels or any other darned way of generating electricity you can think of. And when you change the means of generation, you instantly and for no additional cost upgrade how every downstream EV is powered.
 

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Not proven. Get on the freeway in the EV Capital of the US, California, during rush hour commuting. Will a Volt go further per kWh? GM does not exaggerate their range. The high regen (60kW), blended brakes, and high level of engineering in a Volt could in fact prove to be more efficient in real world driving.

As I found out today, I can slaughter the EPA rating of a 2019 Volt on a typical highway commuter situation. By almost 50% higher hwy than advertised. Tesla tends to exaggerate, GM tends towards understatement.

Edmunds: https://twitter.com/edmunds/status/1060653451229700102
Uh, same EPA is used for both manufacturers... neither can "exaggerate", and if fact Tesla is known for self-rating them lower than EPA would allow to make their more expensive models look better, so exactly the opposite of what you claim. Plenty of people have hypermiled Teslas and gotten crazy high ranges too. Put the same driver in the same situation with a RWD Model 3 and a Volt and the 3 will have higher efficiency... it just has a more efficient motor. Period.
 
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