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A very small percentage of the population could live with the Leaf as their only vehicle whereas the Volt could serve as the only vehicle for many households making it better financially.
As I've been reminded of on many occasions, the DoT's oft-quoted survey states that the Leaf should be a viable option for over 80% of U.S. commuters.
 

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Note that the Leaf will be made in the US starting next month or so, so it won't be a "made in US" question. Both cars will be made in the US and both cars will run on US produced energy.
No, sir. The leaf will be made in Japan and assembled in the U.S., just like all the Asian transplants. The marketing department of Japan, Inc. wants you to believe that they have come to the United States and wrapped themselves in the American flag. Not true. And still, the profits return to Japan.
 

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No, sir. The leaf will be made in Japan and assembled in the U.S., just like all the Asian transplants. The marketing department of Japan, Inc. wants you to believe that they have come to the United States and wrapped themselves in the American flag. Not true. And still, the profits return to Japan.
That's really just not true. The Japanese vehicles made in the USA are not only assembled by thousands of American workers, but most of the parts are also made here. In fact, many of the parts are actually made by American companies. For example, if you recall the recent uproar in the media about Toyota gas pedals? Those pedals were made by CTS, who also made pedals and various other parts for Ford and other manufacturers.

If you work in the service department and have to replace a part on a vehicle you must usually put the VIN number in to find out if you need the Japanese or American parts because in many cases they are not the same fit and you must make sure you order the right part. So if you have a Honda Accord that was built in the USA and order the Japanese part, it will not fit. There are slight differences.

I will agree that the profits do tend to go overseas back to the main company, though. But it is still better than buying a foreign built car because at least the USA built cars do employ a lot of American workers and contribute to our economy.
 

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As I've been reminded of on many occasions, the DoT's oft-quoted survey states that the Leaf should be a viable option for over 80% of U.S. commuters.

That is not what the DoT's sufvey states. It states a car with the Leaf's range should be good for about 80% of the commuter TRIPS. But if I have 20% of my trips that don't work I need a second car and/or rent. The sound similar but make a big difference in meaning. I am unaware of any DoT survey that analyzes if a particular range would work as the max range of a family's car.

Also, for me those longer trips would be in a CUV so would have used 25 gallons more gas if we owned a leaf.
 

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As I've been reminded of on many occasions, the DoT's oft-quoted survey states that the Leaf should be a viable option for over 80% of U.S. commuters.
I'm sure that's true, but being a viable commuter is not the same as being viable as the only vehicle in the houselhold. GM claims the Volt can satisfy 66% or so of U.S. commuters on 100% electric with only a 35-mile AER, so saying the Leaf can satisfy 80% with more than double that AER doesn't say much IMHO. Just because the Leaf can cover your commute doesn't mean it meets all other common household needs and I have yet to hear of a single person that went from having just 1 gas car to having just 1 Leaf. However there are plenty cases like that with the Volt.

So when trying to answer which car offers the best financial value, my point is you can't just compare the prices of each vehicle and what features they offer. If the Volt allows you to offload another vehicle and the Leaf does not then that would have to be part of the equation. Then when you factor in Don's point about the current purchase price not being too far apart, it's tough to make a case for the Leaf. And that's coming from someone who owns a Leaf.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Even with current deals, if you buy the Leaf is cheaper. But where it really gets interesting is leasing. While we pay a similar amount per month for our leased Volt and Leaf, the residual is much lower on the Leaf. When our lease is up we'll be able to purchase our Leaf for $15,000 tax-free. That's a great deal and even if I have to re-finance it to keep it, my payments will drop to $270 per month. The Volt on the other hand, has a residual of $26,000 and our payment will actually go UP to about $475 if we decide to refinance and keep the car. So with the Leaf it is pretty economical to keep the car and eventually get it paid off. With the Volt you are almost better off starting a new lease every 3 years and having perpetual car payments.
I get it . In other words the Volt is a better deal financially for leasing the first 3 years , but the Leaf is a better deal if we keep it for longer . In my case the Leaf would cost me around $70 more per month during the first 36 months . At this point in my life I like trading in cars every 3-4 years , so my method of thinking is different than others who keep their cars longer .
 

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I get it . In other words the Volt is a better deal financially for leasing the first 3 years , but the Leaf is a better deal if we keep it for longer
Keeping a LEAF longer may not be a better value because of the battery degradation. It is an unknown at this point, but the battery does seem to be degrading quickly in hot climates. Nissan has stated an expected 80% capacity remaining after 5 years. A few are already at 85% capacity after about 14-16 months of ownership. No one really knows what a battery replacement costs. It's much less of an issue with a Volt because of the range extender and smaller battery.

Until there is more data on battery longevity (I do think the Tesla Roadsters are holding up well), I would recommend leasing a BEV at this point.
 

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No, sir. The leaf will be made in Japan and assembled in the U.S., just like all the Asian transplants. The marketing department of Japan, Inc. wants you to believe that they have come to the United States and wrapped themselves in the American flag. Not true. And still, the profits return to Japan.
And it's okay the profits from the Volt's LG Chem battery go back to Korea and that the profits from all that gas your Colorado uses go to OPEC?

It's a complicated world economy and as adric mentioned, foreign car companies employ a lot of Americans. I don't think the issue is nearly as simplistic as you make it sound.
 

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That's really just not true. The Japanese vehicles made in the USA are not only assembled by thousands of American workers, but most of the parts are also made here. In fact, many of the parts are actually made by American companies. For example, if you recall the recent uproar in the media about Toyota gas pedals? Those pedals were made by CTS, who also made pedals and various other parts for Ford and other manufacturers.

If you work in the service department and have to replace a part on a vehicle you must usually put the VIN number in to find out if you need the Japanese or American parts because in many cases they are not the same fit and you must make sure you order the right part. So if you have a Honda Accord that was built in the USA and order the Japanese part, it will not fit. There are slight differences.

I will agree that the profits do tend to go overseas back to the main company, though. But it is still better than buying a foreign built car because at least the USA built cars do employ a lot of American workers and contribute to our economy.
Don't believe me? Then, prove it to yourself. Choose one of the Asian branded vehicles that are claimed to be made in America. Any of them, you choose. Then, choose ten parts on the car. Any ten, you choose. Go to the dealer and ask for those parts. Get a good mixture. Try a valve cover gasket, wheel bearings, tail light assy, air filter, etc. Then look at the packaging. See how many, if any, were made here. I'll bet all were made in Asia. Then, choose another ten and look at those. You'll soon see that there are virtually no parts made in America. The Japanese marketing departments fooled you.

They do that by assemblies. They ship engine parts, for example, from Japan to an assembly plant here. They then assemble the engine, ship it to the main assembly plant, and call it "Made in America" because it was assembled here. That way, they can fool the feds, too.

If you think that the assembly line workers make up for that, then check this out. http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org

Besides, this is primarily a Volt forum for Volt enthusiasts.
 

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And it's okay the profits from the Volt's LG Chem battery go back to Korea and that the profits from all that gas your Colorado uses go to OPEC?

It's a complicated world economy and as adric mentioned, foreign car companies employ a lot of Americans. I don't think the issue is nearly as simplistic as you make it sound.
Actually, it IS as simplistic as I make it sound. You buy from am American based company and the majority of profits stay in America. You buy from a Japanese based company and the majority of profits return to Japan.

I live in America. All of my money was made in America. I don't bite the hand that feeds me.
 

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Actually, it IS as simplistic as I make it sound. You buy from am American based company and the majority of profits stay in America. You buy from a Japanese based company and the majority of profits return to Japan.
And buying from an American company with a Korean battery is okay? Buying gas for your Colorado that returns profits to the Middle East is okay?
 

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And buying from an American company with a Korean battery is okay? Buying gas for your Colorado that returns profits to the Middle East is okay?
I think that is where the issue becomes even more complex than the Level Field people are willing to address. In their Jobs Per Car assessment, they don't take into account that spending more money on gas/oil (40% of our imports coming from OPEC, and a majority of our crude being imported period) with many of the domestics starts to skew the numbers back the other direction.
 

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And buying from an American company with a Korean battery is okay? Buying gas for your Colorado that returns profits to the Middle East is okay?
Yes, that's OK. But it's not OK to buy a Korean car with a Korean battery. And it's OK to buy gas for my Colorado. I buy from an American oil company not from an Asian or Middle Eastern oil company. These American oil companies buy oil from the Middle East and South America, and then reap billions of dollars in profits that help the American economy. I love the Exxon and Chevron and Shell companies. You buy fuel from them and it helps everybody that lives here.
 

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Personally, I'm not finding a lot of room to compare many of these super cars. The Tesla, Leaf, Ford Fusion, Chevy Volt. All seem to be indirect if competing at all with each other. The Volt, in pure sales anyway, seems the winner this year. Although who can dismiss the Teslas preorder status. They're on their way too. Nissan and Fisker had the roughest starts.
 

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I love the Exxon and Chevron and Shell companies. You buy fuel from them and it helps everybody that lives here.
Shell? Royal Dutch Shell
Royal Dutch Shell plc (LSE: RDSA, RDSB), commonly known as Shell, is a Dutch–British multinational oil and gas company headquartered in The Hague, Netherlands and with its registered office in London, United Kingdom.[2] It is the world's second largest company by 2011 revenues and one of the six oil and gas "supermajors". Shell is also one of the world's most valuable companies.[3]
 

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These American oil companies buy oil from the Middle East and South America, and then reap billions of dollars in profits that help the American economy. I love the Exxon and Chevron and Shell companies. You buy fuel from them and it helps everybody that lives here.
That sounds a lot like trickle-down economics, which -- considering 84% of this country's wealth is held by 0.3% of the population-- obviously doesn't work.
 
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