GM Volt Forum banner

21 - 40 of 61 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Can't you just look at the screen on the center console once you run out of charge and see how many KWH's you used during your drive?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,422 Posts
Even if you ended up replacing a battery at 150-200K miles (not looking like that will be a common occurrence even) they will do their best to soften the blow for Volt owners. FYI the battery exchange/replacement price is already down to about the same $$ as an automatic transmission overhaul or an engine rebuild.

"Just Drive and Smile"

WopOnTour

But I have read numerous times online that the battery will need to be replaced after about 3 years of use and will cost $35k to do so, lol :)

But seriously, thanks for the great details and explanation, WOT as well as your continuing help and support!

And I'd like to say that even though I have never been a fan of GM (the Volt is my first GM car and my first American car), one of the reasons I bought the car was to reward GM for taking the gamble. I was also impressed with what I learned here at gm-volt about the car's engineering. I have not been disappointed and will be looking at either a Gen2 or a "Bolt" to join my existing Volt in the near future.

Can't you just look at the screen on the center console once you run out of charge and see how many KWH's you used during your drive?
No, no no! The kWh Used display is a guestimate. It's not a meter. It's not measuring. See our FAQ on this here: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?62593-kWh-Used-vs.-Battery-Degradation-FAQ
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
What I really would like to say is relax, don't worry! GM has your back when it comes to these battery packs! Even if you ended up replacing a battery at 150-200K miles (not looking like that will be a common occurrence even) they will do their best to soften the blow for Volt owners. FYI the battery exchange/replacement price is already down to about the same $$ as an automatic transmission overhaul or an engine rebuild.
Another thanks for the explanation. We have come a long way from "we may need to build the cost of a battery replacement under warranty into every Volt". Kudos to the engineering decision to include a very robust TMS. I think that's a big reason we're not seeing anything remotely like the battery fade you see on the Leaf.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
First of all the battery pack capacity reset/learn (it's a single combined function) DOES NOT in any way shape or form represent any sort of "test" of the battery functionality or state of health as had been previously suggested. This reset/learn function is present in the GDS2 software in the "Module Setup" section and is a special function that both erases the previously stored module capacity value and commences a sequence of subroutines to learn (over time) a fresh value that is stored in HPCM2 memory that represents the existing static capacity (Ah) as a point of reference for numerous activities.

The reset/learn is technically ONLY to be performed when 1 of 3 things have occurred:
  • the battery pack has been replaced
  • any section of the battery pack has been replaced
  • HPCM2 has been replaced

In the "other" thread you referred to, in which I had mentioned this process- this was specifically due to the possibility that the reset/learn was not done immediately following a pack replacement.
Since then steps have been taken (e.g. via technician prompts embedded in the service programming software) to insure the technician performs this reset/learn under the aforementioned repairs have been performed.

No generally they would not .
Observing a 0.01-0.03V variation on a scan tool and especially in the absence of triggered voltage DTCs, would be considered perfectly normal. In fact, depending on conditions even as much as a 0.05V or more observed variation might be considered OK. This is because it will depend on exactly WHEN this instance was indicated , where within the pack the variation is observed, and under what specific conditions.

Was it during charging? discharging? hot/cold soak? before/after cell balancing occurred? etc etc
ALL of these can affect the observed cell group's (triplet) differential voltage and therefore ALL of these conditions are taken into account within the diagnostic routines used to establish when there actually IS an issue. So in a nutshell IF your Volt wasn't triggering cell variation DTCs THEN there isn't any significant variation present WHEN IT MATTERS.

Quite simply as far as individually monitored PIDs that one might be able to monitor on GDS2 and scan tool or some other CAN device, and used as a metric representing pack, group, or cell state of health- THERE REALLY ISNT ANY!
The process is simply too complex to rely on simple point-and-shoot analysis if such individual data points.

Once a DTC is triggered however, that's when we KNOW something abnormal WAS observed under a precise set of enabling and failure criteria. Then and only then might some of these PIDs be used, but only under the conditions as detailed by the diagnostic and often only as a technician observable verification/corroboration of the diagnostic software's indicated detected fault.

Does this help?

What I really would like to say is relax, don't worry! GM has your back when it comes to these battery packs! Even if you ended up replacing a battery at 150-200K miles (not looking like that will be a common occurrence even) they will do their best to soften the blow for Volt owners. FYI the battery exchange/replacement price is already down to about the same $$ as an automatic transmission overhaul or an engine rebuild.

"Just Drive and Smile"

WopOnTour
Nope..you’re way way way off..
I have 156,000 miles on my volt and the dealer just told me the battery needs replacing..
$13k...right from GM. Battery pack alone in $9k.

I’m going to write GM and find out what they will do as apparently mine is one of the only volt’s the battery has failed like this...

with GM going to all battery powered vehicles, considering the replacement costs to those people (obviously the assumption that costs will come down over time hasn’t worked out) they’d have an expensive door stop...at least I can drive with the gas engine...
WOW...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
Nope..you’re way way way off..
I have 156,000 miles on my volt and the dealer just told me the battery needs replacing..
$13k...right from GM. Battery pack alone in $9k.

I’m going to write GM and find out what they will do as apparently mine is one of the only volt’s the battery has failed like this...

with GM going to all battery powered vehicles, considering the replacement costs to those people (obviously the assumption that costs will come down over time hasn’t worked out) they’d have an expensive door stop...at least I can drive with the gas engine...
WOW...
You realize that every vehicle has its share of problems. Many ice owners end up with blown engines or ruined transmissions that end up at the junkyard. I’m sad that it happened to you as none of my vehicles have suffered such a fate. Yet, you got 156k miles out of it. The car served its purpose.

In a weird way, I kind of wish my car would get totaled so I have an excuse to shop for a new vehicle. The Volt was great as a commuter car, but my commuting situation has changed, we are empty nesters now, and my wife needs a vehicle with power passenger seats with lumbar to help with her backaches.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
You realize that every vehicle has its share of problems. Many ice owners end up with blown engines or ruined transmissions that end up at the junkyard. I’m sad that it happened to you as none of my vehicles have suffered such a fate. Yet, you got 156k miles out of it. The car served its purpose.

In a weird way, I kind of wish my car would get totaled so I have an excuse to shop for a new vehicle. The Volt was great as a commuter car, but my commuting situation has changed, we are empty nesters now, and my wife needs a vehicle with power passenger seats with lumbar to help with her backaches.
I have a 20 year old Mercedes. It has 180,000 miles on it.
I’ve fixed many things on it. It still functions like when I first bought it.
The thing is in your reply, you state that a 9 year old car has served its purpose. Really?
So spending $40k on a vehicle and I’m suppose to just say..well I got 9 years out of it.
That’s ridiculous...you may think it’s ok..but it’s not acceptable in any way.
Making replacement parts for something that costs more than the vehicle isn’t good for any company...especially one that is pushing battery powered cars/vehicles as they their move forward.

it just doesn’t make any sense....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
I have a 20 year old Mercedes. It has 180,000 miles on it.
I’ve fixed many things on it. It still functions like when I first bought it.
The thing is in your reply, you state that a 9 year old car has served its purpose. Really?
So spending $40k on a vehicle and I’m suppose to just say..well I got 9 years out of it.
That’s ridiculous...you may think it’s ok..but it’s not acceptable in any way.
Making replacement parts for something that costs more than the vehicle isn’t good for any company...especially one that is pushing battery powered cars/vehicles as they their move forward.

it just doesn’t make any sense....
I bought my volt for $23k new after a bunch of rebates and such., so the $40k argument doesn’t quite fit my situation. I too have had a Toyota Supra and a BMW 5 series that almost reached 200k miles before I gave them away (still running). But I view hitting 150k miles as a success not a failure.

It’s not the years, it’s the mileage. Had your car failed at 30k miles then you have a very valid argument. The car is past its Powertrain warranty and battery warranty so I’m not sure why you think this in unacceptable. Sure the battery replacement is pricey. So is a new engine for a specialty car like a corvette. This isn’t an econobox like a Cobalt economies of scale drop the engine prices. You could also seek out a low mileage volt involved in a crash for a much cheaper battery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
I bought my volt for $23k new after a bunch of rebates and such., so the $40k argument doesn’t quite fit my situation. I too have had a Toyota Supra and a BMW 5 series that almost reached 200k miles before I gave them away (still running). But I view hitting 150k miles as a success not a failure.

It’s not the years, it’s the mileage. Had your car failed at 30k miles then you have a very valid argument. The car is past its Powertrain warranty and battery warranty so I’m not sure why you think this in unacceptable. Sure the battery replacement is pricey. So is a new engine for a specialty car like a corvette. This isn’t an econobox like a Cobalt economies of scale drop the engine prices. You could also seek out a low mileage volt involved in a crash for a much cheaper battery.
I didn’t say I considered the use a failure...the failure is that GM brags about (there is an article Mary Bara claims zero volt battery failures due to wear) in its move into all electric and yet that just isn’t true.
And in all other failures of a vehicle, I can pretty much repair things myself..
And yes I have looked for salvaged Volt batteries and yes they are cheap..however there is a step to discharge and then reinstall it and the dealer is the only one that has the equipment to do this without risking one’s life.
I call it a failure when a company builds a vehicle that only they can fix...and then only when paying way more than the vehicle..
I want to see what they’ll say...
Let just leave it that you and I have really different expectations out of what we expect to get for our purchases...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
I didn’t say I considered the use a failure...the failure is that GM brags about (there is an article Mary Bara claims zero volt battery failures due to wear) in its move into all electric and yet that just isn’t true.
And in all other failures of a vehicle, I can pretty much repair things myself..
And yes I have looked for salvaged Volt batteries and yes they are cheap..however there is a step to discharge and then reinstall it and the dealer is the only one that has the equipment to do this without risking one’s life.
I call it a failure when a company builds a vehicle that only they can fix...and then only when paying way more than the vehicle..
I want to see what they’ll say...
Let just leave it that you and I have really different expectations out of what we expect to get for our purchases...
Well, it is a new era. Sure there are lots of independent mechanics that can fix ICE vehicles, but nearly every Tesla on the road has the same problem that you are complaining about. There’s a YouTube guy out there who pieced together totalled Teslas to make his own Model S, yet he has hit all sorts of roadblocks because of the way Tesla wants to control the software updates and the various parts communicating with each other.

Similar things things are happening in the John Deere combine arena where JD has made it virtually impossible for you to replace your own parts like in the old days. Rather than simple replaceable mechanical parts, everything has software and serial numbers with communication busses and encryption.

This makes me wonder whether auto parts stores will be able to stay in business given that oil filters, spark plugs, and engine oil will no longer be needed. They’ll be left selling coolant, wiper fluid wipers, tires, bolts, and fuzzy dice. Or will some new entity emerge like interstate battery to upgrade your current Volt to a 100 mile battery? I’d pay good money for that.... if I weren’t wishing for someone to T-bone my volt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill Step

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
What's actually wrong with your car?
Scroll up... battery failure on Mark’s car. Nothing on mine, other than my needs have changed and I want something different, newer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Well, it is a new era. Sure there are lots of independent mechanics that can fix ICE vehicles, but nearly every Tesla on the road has the same problem that you are complaining about. There’s a YouTube guy out there who pieced together totalled Teslas to make his own Model S, yet he has hit all sorts of roadblocks because of the way Tesla wants to control the software updates and the various parts communicating with each other.

Similar things things are happening in the John Deere combine arena where JD has made it virtually impossible for you to replace your own parts like in the old days. Rather than simple replaceable mechanical parts, everything has software and serial numbers with communication busses and encryption.

This makes me wonder whether auto parts stores will be able to stay in business given that oil filters, spark plugs, and engine oil will no longer be needed. They’ll be left selling coolant, wiper fluid wipers, tires, bolts, and fuzzy dice. Or will some new entity emerge like interstate battery to upgrade your current Volt to a 100 mile battery? I’d pay good money for that.... if I weren’t wishing for someone to T-bone my volt.
The big issue is that people are already “fearful” of battery range...which is why electric vehicles are still a niche market.
Roll into this the now known cost of replacement batteries..and no the assumed decrease in cost due to volume isn’t happening...
Now you’ve just really isolated the general public at a time when car makers are moving to all electric vehicles..no backup ICE...
Things like mine will just reinforce the fear of many and prevent the public from accepting this move....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
The big issue is that people are already “fearful” of battery range...which is why electric vehicles are still a niche market.
Roll into this the now known cost of replacement batteries..and no the assumed decrease in cost due to volume isn’t happening...
Now you’ve just really isolated the general public at a time when car makers are moving to all electric vehicles..no backup ICE...
Things like mine will just reinforce the fear of many and prevent the public from accepting this move....
i realize you are upset because the battery failure happened to you, and I wish you the best that GM replaces the battery gratis, but if you were driving 9 year old $40k Mercedes and blew the engine with 156k miles on it, do you think you would have any traction at all getting Mercedes to replace your engine for free?

I knew a guy who had a 3 or 4 year old Chrysler conquest that blew It’s engine. Chrysler didn’t replace the engine even though it was still under the 10 year 100k drivetrain warranty because they claimed he let the engine get into a low oil condition. Since he didn’t take the car to the dealership for regular maintenance, he tried to dig up jiffy lube and personal oil and filter purchases, but since he didn’t have records of meticulous oil changes, he was screwed. In his case, he was pissed enough to never buy another Chrysler or mitsubishi vehicle for the rest of his life. That said, he also drove the car pretty hard since he was in his mid 20’s.

All vehicles are made of moving parts, moving parts (and in the case of batteries, chemical parts) wear out and eventually break. Some break sooner than others. Such is life - curve balls will always be thrown at you... be ready for them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
i realize you are upset because the battery failure happened to you, and I wish you the best that GM replaces the battery gratis, but if you were driving 9 year old $40k Mercedes and blew the engine with 156k miles on it, do you think you would have any traction at all getting Mercedes to replace your engine for free?

I knew a guy who had a 3 or 4 year old Chrysler conquest that blew It’s engine. Chrysler didn’t replace the engine even though it was still under the 10 year 100k drivetrain warranty because they claimed he let the engine get into a low oil condition. Since he didn’t take the car to the dealership for regular maintenance, he tried to dig up jiffy lube and personal oil and filter purchases, but since he didn’t have records of meticulous oil changes, he was screwed. In his case, he was pissed enough to never buy another Chrysler or mitsubishi vehicle for the rest of his life. That said, he also drove the car pretty hard since he was in his mid 20’s.

All vehicles are made of moving parts, moving parts (and in the case of batteries, chemical parts) wear out and eventually break. Some break sooner than others. Such is life - curve balls will always be thrown at you... be ready for them.
You’re missing the entire point...
If my engine blew out, I could take it out myself and buy a used engine cheap and replace it.
There is no choice like that for me..and the battery is THE part that makes the car what it is suppose to be.
Touting the technology as they have, and yet having THE key part fail so rapidly is my problem.
Living near Detroit, I know people in the auto industry that work exclusively with these batteries...they’ve told me this battery will out last the car...and yet even tho the battery still holds a charge and will work, GM’s software is the problem with why they’re saying the battery needs to be replaced. Same software that prevents one from using the entire capacity of the battery...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
I do get it. I don't think you're the only one to experience battery failure after the software update. What's more likely is that the battery failure revealed itself with the software update where the previous battery wouldn't have revealed it, but the damage was still happening. At least that's what I've read from other sources. I reluctantly did my battery update last fall and have fingers crossed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
I do get it. I don't think you're the only one to experience battery failure after the software update. What's more likely is that the battery failure revealed itself with the software update where the previous battery wouldn't have revealed it, but the damage was still happening. At least that's what I've read from other sources. I reluctantly did my battery update last fall and have fingers crossed.
And that’s what I suspected that the software update changed parameters ..
And perhaps the battery was discharging ...but my sources told me after about 30% degradation that levels off...
So my battery isn’t truly “bad” or usable, but it is according to the software...which I think is what was changed last year when I had it installed...
Hence my complaint to GM...so I will see
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,923 Posts
And that’s what I suspected that the software update changed parameters ..
And perhaps the battery was discharging ...but my sources told me after about 30% degradation that levels off...
So my battery isn’t truly “bad” or usable, but it is according to the software...which I think is what was changed last year when I had it installed...
Hence my complaint to GM...so I will see
Part of me wants the Volt to last until 2024 when I can get a 2nd year Lyriq, and part of me wants it to die right now so I can get a Silverado/Sierra or a Subkukonade. And if the 401(k) blossoms, maybe that Lyriq transmogrophies into a Hummer EV.
 

·
Registered
2014 Cadillac ELR
Joined
·
708 Posts
If my engine blew out, I could take it out myself and buy a used engine cheap and replace it.
Same with the battery replacement. Compare apples to apples. A dealer replacement engine and labour will be at least the battery replacement cost for the Volt. If you can DIY an engine swap, why can't you DIY the battery? Car up in the air, disconnect, drain fluids, drop battery, new battery in, connect, fill, update software. There's nothing mysterious about BEV, it's just nuts/bolts/software. Just like an ICE replacement that needs a reflash to pair something like a PCM or BCM.

I know you're not happy. But, you can do it cheaper than the dealer, even if you get a shop to do it for you. Just like an engine swap.
 
21 - 40 of 61 Posts
Top