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From Blomberg, GM is estimated to be loosing $9000 on every Bolt it sells, but this may not be a bad thing as its may be a calculated risk to gain market share in a changing market.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-30/gm-s-ready-to-lose-9-000-a-pop-and-chase-the-electric-car-boom
Wonder how they got that number. We know the battery supposedly costs $8,700 at the cell level (60 kWh * $145). Let's assume another 30% on top for battery management systems and all that jazz, so now we're at $11,300. $37,495 - $11,300 = $26,195 for the rest of the car.

Even if GM is losing $9k on every Bolt sold (I'm dubious), it is receiving ~$14,000 in ZEV credits for every Bolt sold in a CARB state, assuming the going rate for 1 ZEV credit on the ZEV credit swapping market is around $3,500. If GM needs every single ZEV credit it gets from the Bolt, it effectively makes each ZEV credit worth $5k, which is the penalty for every credit a manufacturer is short. In that case, Bolts are worth $20k in ZEV credits to GM in the CARB states.

Even on the low end, GM is still making at least $5k for every Bolt sold in a CARB state. Non-CARB state? Gets a lot murkier.
 

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From Blomberg, GM is estimated to be loosing $9000 on every Bolt it sells, but this may not be a bad thing as its may be a calculated risk to gain market share in a changing market.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-30/gm-s-ready-to-lose-9-000-a-pop-and-chase-the-electric-car-boom
As the Bolt pulls into year 4 the cost of the car will likely get more favorable.

Every time I see these hash out articles then dig into where they get their numbers it's usually because they roll R&D into the first year or something equally stupid
 

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I wonder if it's true. Aside from the batteries an electric drive train should be less expensive then a conventional drivetrain. Electric motors are much simpler then ICEs and there is no transmission at all. A Chevy Cruze Premier lists for 14K less than a Bolt. GM says the battery cost in the Bolt is $145/KWh or $8700, add that to the price of a Cruze and you still have an additional $5K in the price of the Bolt vs a Cruze. If GM is really losing 9K per Bolt that means that the electric drive train (minus the batteries) is 14K more than the ICE + transmission in the Cruze, that doesn't sound right to me.
 

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This makes me wonder if this is a long-term play to squeeze Tesla and their money making ability on the ZEV credit market. We know Tesla makes a decent chunk of money selling ZEV credits....so much, it was the sole reason they made a profit last quarter.
If GM "floods" the market with Bolt ZEV credits (using enough to cover itself, then selling any extras to other manufacturers for less than what Tesla wants for theirs), that could make a serious dent into Tesla's bottom line.

Makes me question the Model 3's $35k price point even more. There is NO WAY Tesla is making any money on a base Model 3. Take away the projected ZEV credit earnings from each Model 3 sale? Makes the numbers look even more crooked and in the red.
 

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This makes me wonder if this is a long-term play to squeeze Tesla and their money making ability on the ZEV credit market. We know Tesla makes a decent chunk of money selling ZEV credits....so much, it was the sole reason they made a profit last quarter.
If GM "floods" the market with Bolt ZEV credits (using enough to cover itself, then selling any extras to other manufacturers for less than what Tesla wants for theirs), that could make a serious dent into Tesla's bottom line.

Makes me question the Model 3's $35k price point even more. There is NO WAY Tesla is making any money on a base Model 3. Take away the projected ZEV credit earnings from each Model 3 sale? Makes the numbers look even more crooked and in the red.

GM is only planning on selling 30K Bolts a year which is enough to cover their own ZEV credit requirements but not enough to sell to other manufacturers. Musk has been quoted as saying that the ZEV credit system puts Tesla at a disadvantage vis a vis GM because GM can take full advantage of the credits whereas Tesla sells theirs at pennies on the dollar. I don't see anything nefarious in GMs Bolt plans.
 

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Be curious to see these same reports on the Tesla M3.

If GM is losing $9K per vehicle as the author says, Tesla is in BIG trouble.
 

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I find it hard to believe that GM is losing $9,000 on every Bolt. Maybe they are referring to the R&D in developing the Bolt. I remember back 10-15 years ago when Toyota was singing the same song that they were losing thousands of dollars for every Prius they sold. Anybody remember that?
 

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It would not surprise me if the Bolt had a higher production price than selling price for at least 2 years.
It's more than just a new model, it's a whole new system that is dictated by both government mandates from Washington and California, and GM's desire to dominate the EV market.

GM made the Bolt better than it had to be. It greatly surpassed what was needed for a compliance car, much like the Volt.

People keep talking about Compliance Cars. From here on out, the percentage of compliance cars is going to continue to climb as the government creates more mandates and restrictions on personal transportation.

However, there is a second agenda by automakers. Not just to make mandate cars, but to win the market for these kinds of cars. Some MFR's are building the absolute minimum mandates. Pure series hybrids, EV's that have minimal range, EV's that have lackluster performance. GM is perhaps betting that they will win this market. The #1 obstacle to domination is not Tesla, it's Toyota.

Toyota is saving money and market share by making a minimum effort, which is selling well, since it has a better Green Image and History, regardless of actual technology or performance. GM has to migrate these buyers to their product line before Toyota decides to make a truly competitive effort at EVs.
 

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GM is only planning on selling 30K Bolts a year which is enough to cover their own ZEV credit requirements but not enough to sell to other manufacturers. Musk has been quoted as saying that the ZEV credit system puts Tesla at a disadvantage vis a vis GM because GM can take full advantage of the credits whereas Tesla sells theirs at pennies on the dollar. I don't see anything nefarious in GMs Bolt plans.
GM has confirmed that 30K number is bogus. Remember the Bolt EV / Ampera-e will be sold in most right hand drive countries where Chevrolet / Opel is sold. 30K might have been a US only target or an initial target for supplier quotation purposes.

http://insideevs.com/general-motors-ability-produce-90000-chevrolet-bolts-annually/
 

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GM has confirmed that 30K number is bogus. Remember the Bolt EV / Ampera-e will be sold in most right hand drive countries where Chevrolet / Opel is sold. 30K might have been a US only target or an initial target for supplier quotation purposes.

http://insideevs.com/general-motors-ability-produce-90000-chevrolet-bolts-annually/
They don't get ZEV credits for Opal Amperas, they only get them for Bolts and Volts sold in CARB States. If they sell 30K Bolts in California alone they will just cover their ZEV requirements in CA without generating any excess credits that they can sell. Between Bolts and Volts GM has a good chance of covering most of their ZEV requirements in the CARB states but they won't have any excess that they could use to undermine Tesla.
 

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IIRC, the same thing happened with the Volt initially. It transitioned into nice profit margin as GM learned from mistakes and established a good supply/assembly line. Many non-luxury new cars lose money for the first few months or year.
 

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I am highly skeptical of Bloomberg's claim. The Bolt is priced $5800 cheaper in Canada, where there are no incentives to sell X number of EVs. Why would they choose to lose $15k there on each one?

http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-canada-priced-42795/

Methinks someone did some shoddy accounting again trying to recoup NRE costs to a single year's worth of Bolt sales, like what they did with the Volt way back. They flunked out of accounting and scored high in deceptive math practices.

By the way, I messaged Bloomberg on Facebook and called them out for reporting this as fact. If many do the same, they may rethink how casually they choose to throw out these numbers, based solely on citing "a person familiar with the matter"
 

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https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevtutorial/zevtutorial.htm

3rd link leads to a PPT that explains the ZEV credit program in 2018 and beyond. If someone can make sense of that, I think the answer lies in there.

What I got is:
Bolt EV = 4 ZEV credits through 31 Dec 2017 / 3 ZEV credits after 1 Jan 2018
30 kWh Leaf = 2 ZEV credits after 1 Jan 2018
Gen 2 Volt = max of 1.3 ZEV credits after 1 Jan '18
Mirai = 4 ZEV credits after 1 Jan '18 (think it is currently worth 9 ZEV credits)
Non Volt/i3 REx PHEV = max of 1.1 ZEV credits after 1 Jan '18

And I'm pretty sure slide 40 explains why manufacturers focus ZEV sales in Cali.
Oh, and manufacturers can't simply refuse to sell ZEVs and just pay the fines. If they do that, they won't be able to sell cars in CA. They need to either sell ZEVs and generate their own credits, or buy ZEV credits from others, or some combination of the 2.
 

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They don't get ZEV credits for Opal Amperas, they only get them for Bolts and Volts sold in CARB States. If they sell 30K Bolts in California alone they will just cover their ZEV requirements in CA without generating any excess credits that they can sell. Between Bolts and Volts GM has a good chance of covering most of their ZEV requirements in the CARB states but they won't have any excess that they could use to undermine Tesla.
And your point? GM is clearly selling Bolt's and Ampera-e's in markets that also do not have ZEV credits. So clearly the credits are not the only motivator.
 

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This is complete and unadulterated BS. AFAIK the only credible cost breakdown of the Bolt EV was done by Jon Beriesa. (If you don't know who he is then you should find out since he's a big deal in the electrification of transportation). He found the FVC, or factory variable cost, to be roughly $32,500. Now FVC only includes parts, material, and assembly labor per car and excludes things such as depreciation, engineering, research, development, overhead, selling, as well as general and administrative expenses, but it's basically what people think of when think about how much a car costs to make. So without more of an explanation of what they're talking about, the authors of the Bloomberg piece are at the very least being seriously misleading when talking about what the Bolt EV costs. In fact I doubt even if you add in these expenses amortized over the run of the car would you get to $46,000+ in costs.

FWIW, for those who asked, Beriesa estimated the FVC of a Model 3 to be $36,500.
 

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According to an anonymous source...at Tesla? haha.

This rumor-mill smear campaign reminds me of the claims that Chevy lost $1 billion on every Volt sold, then it was $250,000 each, or $75,000 or $50,000 each depending on the rumor-monger.

Keep in mind the "costs" these rumor-mongers use often include stuff a normal business never includes. Otherwise, wed be seeing articles on the $2 million dollar hamburger from a new McDonalds franchise. After all, they had buy buy land, build a store, buy equipment, train people, pay for the franchise, buy the ingredients....
 
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