Wow, that is such an obvious solution to the compression issue - 90% sounds good enough to me - forget heavy batteries, here comes lighter than air hydrogen!
Toyota introduces advanced FCV.
Toyota introduces advanced FCV:
Link
Please forgive the author's ignorance of hybrid vehicles. The author tries to compare a parallel hybrid to a fuel cell vehicle, and totally botches it. It's best to stick to the first couple paragraphs.
The race for fuel cell vehicles is on.
Link
Please forgive the author's ignorance of hybrid vehicles. The author tries to compare a parallel hybrid to a fuel cell vehicle, and totally botches it. It's best to stick to the first couple paragraphs.
The race for fuel cell vehicles is on.
21 - 40 of 87 Posts
References please. Let me check things out and see why they are not being used today.
Stop the lunacy
I can't stand this lunacy. Let's get a Wiki on hydrogen. A single hyperlinked document that we can all contribute - with all relevant facts. A logical presetation of all facts and options. Then, based on the facts, a statement of pros and cons and an assessment of costs for each option. We can all contribute. Lyle is there a way to do this on this site? A document that we can all contribute and edit? I would also like one on updated specs for the Volt. Please!
Comments
I can't stand this lunacy. Let's get a Wiki on hydrogen. A single hyperlinked document that we can all contribute - with all relevant facts. A logical presetation of all facts and options. Then, based on the facts, a statement of pros and cons and an assessment of costs for each option. We can all contribute. Lyle is there a way to do this on this site? A document that we can all contribute and edit? I would also like one on updated specs for the Volt. Please!
Comments
Tom,
All options must be pursued, and not just the ones any individuals prefer over another. Breakthrough happen everyday that cause one tech to leapfrog another - even ethanol is now being produced from bio-waste and algae, so don't rule anything out.
All options must be pursued, and not just the ones any individuals prefer over another. Breakthrough happen everyday that cause one tech to leapfrog another - even ethanol is now being produced from bio-waste and algae, so don't rule anything out.
Understanding or chaos?
I don't believe in throwing dice to make decisions or evaluations. The universe we live in has certain constraints. The laws of thermodynamics are irrevocable. Water runs downhill. The mere fact that life exists dictates the fundamental constants and balances of the universe. One can rely on the laws of probabiliities: Ocam's razor, "Murphy's Law". Physical processes have certain limits and implications. Designing a product is a process of making a series of best judgements and cost implications out of a sea of almost infinite possibilities. Design is the process of making these specifications explicit. Yes there will be new discoveries, in some case unexpected, but they will be made by those who have a deep understanding of their work.
I don't believe in throwing dice to make decisions or evaluations. The universe we live in has certain constraints. The laws of thermodynamics are irrevocable. Water runs downhill. The mere fact that life exists dictates the fundamental constants and balances of the universe. One can rely on the laws of probabiliities: Ocam's razor, "Murphy's Law". Physical processes have certain limits and implications. Designing a product is a process of making a series of best judgements and cost implications out of a sea of almost infinite possibilities. Design is the process of making these specifications explicit. Yes there will be new discoveries, in some case unexpected, but they will be made by those who have a deep understanding of their work.
... and those who continue to follow the old cookbook engineering paradigm will fall to the two groups who exploit their weakness:I don't believe in throwing dice to make decisions or evaluations. The universe we live in has certain constraints. The laws of thermodynamics are irrevocable. Water runs downhill. The mere fact that life exists dictates the fundamental constants and balances of the universe. One can rely on the laws of probabiliities: Ocam's razor, "Murphy's Law". Physical processes have certain limits and implications. Designing a product is a process of making a series of best judgements and cost implications out of a sea of almost infinite possibilities. Design is the process of making these specifications explicit. Yes there will be new discoveries, in some case unexpected, but they will be made by those who have a deep understanding of their work.
1) visionaries, who can see beyond the "common knowledge"
2) genetic algorithms, which will pursue all options, allowing the solutions that consumers prefer to evolve
Today, multiple visionaries are pursuing varying solutions from which consumers will select the most viable, while cookbook engineers continue to naval gaze and shout from the peanut gallery.
The visionaries are still constrained by many things. Cost, physics, to name just two.... and those who continue to follow the old cookbook engineering paradigm will fall to the two groups who exploit their weakness:
1) visionaries, who can see beyond the "common knowledge"
2) genetic algorithms, which will pursue all options, allowing the solutions that consumers prefer to evolve
Genetic algorithms are very useful in nature. There are, for example, gazillions of insects in the world; permitting RANDOM mutation and selection to change the population is therefore possible, the cost of a single insect with a bad or useless outcome is insignificant. You could implement a genetic algorithm in a computer, where the cost of each calculation is very low (because memory and computes are very, very cheap).
Government and industry can't work like that with energy projects. The cost of a blind alley is significant and we avoid it by focussing on the likely and finding ways to rule out the unlikely.
If a technology requires high capital cost, several significant breakthroughs or even just one "breakthrough" that's really a stop at the wall of physics, it's best to consider the alternatives.
... and yet, when we allow only the "knowledgeable" to select our only paths, we end up spending close to $1 trillion to develop the Tokamak, with no results ...... and those who continue to follow the old cookbook engineering paradigm will fall to the two groups who exploit their weakness:
1) visionaries, who can see beyond the "common knowledge"
2) genetic algorithms, which will pursue all options, allowing the solutions that consumers prefer to evolve
QUOTE]
The visionaries are still constrained by many things. Cost, physics, to name just two.
Genetic algorithms are very useful in nature. There are, for example, gazillions of insects in the world; permitting RANDOM mutation and selection to change the population is therefore possible, the cost of a single insect with a bad or useless outcome is insignificant. You could implement a genetic algorithm in a computer, where the cost of each calculation is very low (because memory and computes are very, very cheap).
Government and industry can't work like that with energy projects. The cost of a blind alley is significant and we avoid it by focussing on the likely and finding ways to rule out the unlikely.
If a technology requires high capital cost, several significant breakthroughs or even just one "breakthrough" that's really a stop at the wall of physics, it's best to consider the alternatives.
The fact is, VC supported firms will pursue techs that government and university bookworms will not, for reasons that government and university bookworms will not, and consumers will select their solutions for reasons that government and university bookworms will not.
You can't fool Mother Nature with retoric
Jason,
What you say is true, but this is only a part of the picture. Let me give you a quote and mantra from the leader of one of the most innovative and visionary companies, ever, Andy Grove, CEO, president and chairman of Intel, "The devil is in the details." Yes, vision will lead to new paradigms and breakthroughs. But, the vision will be unfulfilled, and litter the dustbin of history, if it doesn’t comply with the inexorable contraints of reality. The details that that will make or break it.
Jason,
What you say is true, but this is only a part of the picture. Let me give you a quote and mantra from the leader of one of the most innovative and visionary companies, ever, Andy Grove, CEO, president and chairman of Intel, "The devil is in the details." Yes, vision will lead to new paradigms and breakthroughs. But, the vision will be unfulfilled, and litter the dustbin of history, if it doesn’t comply with the inexorable contraints of reality. The details that that will make or break it.
... so we should allow all paths to proceed without interference, as each will innovate to increase their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. You only have to look at the automotive industry in general to see how multiple solutions, which optimize different aspects, find their niche markets.Jason,
What you say is true, but this is only a part of the picture. Let me give you a quote and mantra from the leader of one of the most innovative and visionary companies, ever, Andy Grove, CEO, president and chairman of Intel, "The devil is in the details." Yes, vision will lead to new paradigms and breakthroughs. But, the vision will be unfulfilled, and litter the dustbin of history, if it doesn’t comply with the inexorable contraints of reality. The details that that will make or break it.
Philosophical Implications
Just out of curiosity, is this the Zen Buddhist theory of automotive company evolution?
I'm just struggling with nomenclature.
Just out of curiosity, is this the Zen Buddhist theory of automotive company evolution?
I'm just struggling with nomenclature.As soon as I'm not busy, I'll try to search those papers. Many great technological breakthroughs are not in the market today doesn't mean they are not great. Proper timing and public demand has a lot to do with the success of building a better mousetrap. Another big factor is the patent. If the patent prices are exhorbitant, then the innovation may not move further. And if it indeed was marketed by others, the patent troll attorneys will have a field day. Still others, some oil companies, using some third party representations, are behind the killing of the innovations. They buy these patents and shelve them. And if it was done by another, there will be hell to pay. I have seen many innovations that were killed. A better mouse trap is not a guarantee that they will be sold or adopted.References please. Let me check things out and see why they are not being used today.
Solar energy combined with hydrogen is better than electric from the grid to power an erev.
An expensive alternative
The efficiency in using PV to directly charge batteries is 2 to 3 times greater than any sunlight to hydrogen process. Once you get hydrogen, you have to use electricity to compress it. Then you put it into a fuel cells which are very expensive, typically 100 times more expensive per kW output than conventional internal combustion engines. The fuel cell then has an efficiency of 60% and only works above -20F (i.e. southern states). The losses in generating and using (high pressure) hydrogen make it an expensive alternative to the grid/16 kWhr battery. Those are the facts.
The efficiency in using PV to directly charge batteries is 2 to 3 times greater than any sunlight to hydrogen process. Once you get hydrogen, you have to use electricity to compress it. Then you put it into a fuel cells which are very expensive, typically 100 times more expensive per kW output than conventional internal combustion engines. The fuel cell then has an efficiency of 60% and only works above -20F (i.e. southern states). The losses in generating and using (high pressure) hydrogen make it an expensive alternative to the grid/16 kWhr battery. Those are the facts.
Where is your "evidence of fact" that fuel cells cost $150,000? Honda and Toyota are moving forward with their FCV's, so I doubt fuel cells are anywhere near that expensive.The efficiency in using PV to directly charge batteries is 2 to 3 times greater than any sunlight to hydrogen process. Once you get hydrogen, you have to use electricity to compress it. Then you put it into a fuel cells which are very expensive, typically 100 times more expensive per kW output than conventional internal combustion engines. The fuel cell then has an efficiency of 60% and only works above -20F (i.e. southern states). The losses in generating and using (high pressure) hydrogen make it an expensive alternative to the grid/16 kWhr battery. Those are the facts.
Solar energy combined with hydrogen is better than electric from the grid to power an erev.
You just used a huge brush to paint that statement. In what way is it better? Efficiency? Cost? Please support your arguments.
Japan funds are getting all the growth, and this author points to Japan moving first on FCV's, while countries like India are burdened with petroleum price increases.
Link
Do all the analysis you want, speculators are placing their bets with those nations moving first and fastest on hydrogen.
Link
Do all the analysis you want, speculators are placing their bets with those nations moving first and fastest on hydrogen.
Cost of fuel cell, per kW, relative to ICE
Rough numbers: The cost of fuel cells have come down. Say a fuel cell costs $3000 and outputs 16 kW. Compare this with a GM 455 325 hp engine, costing $2100. Then the relative cost per kW is a factor of 21. Not exact, but it certainly establish the point that fuel cells, per kW, are more than an order of magnitude more expensive. A 100X is a stretch, but whats a little stretching between friends.
Updated:
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress04/ivi4_carlson.pdf
Gives projected cost of $4000/kW for fuel cells in 2010. This gives a ratio of 461.
typically 100 times more expensive per kW output than conventional internal combustion engines.
Rough numbers: The cost of fuel cells have come down. Say a fuel cell costs $3000 and outputs 16 kW. Compare this with a GM 455 325 hp engine, costing $2100. Then the relative cost per kW is a factor of 21. Not exact, but it certainly establish the point that fuel cells, per kW, are more than an order of magnitude more expensive. A 100X is a stretch, but whats a little stretching between friends.
Updated:
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress04/ivi4_carlson.pdf
Gives projected cost of $4000/kW for fuel cells in 2010. This gives a ratio of 461.
Fuel cell develope today has little difference in meaning than BEV development in the 90's, except FCV's are even further from being practical. It is an ineteresting idea that has interesting applications, but it is sideshow distracting attention and resources from the path of developing 100 mile AER EREV's. What problems will fuel cells be solving when our non-electric transportation fuel needs are less than 10% of what they are today and falling? Nearly all vehicle development programs and initiatives should be (and should have been for some time) focusing on advancement of batteries, electric drivetrain components, range extending power generation, AND charging infrastructure.
Koz,
There are plenty of companies in countless nations working on battery solutions, so fuel cell development isn't taking any resources away from them. Moreover, fuel cell tech is available for transportation sectors where batteries simply can't work, like aviation, as we've recently seen fuel cell aircraft making maiden voyages.
There are plenty of companies in countless nations working on battery solutions, so fuel cell development isn't taking any resources away from them. Moreover, fuel cell tech is available for transportation sectors where batteries simply can't work, like aviation, as we've recently seen fuel cell aircraft making maiden voyages.
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