GM Volt Forum banner

Toyota introduces advanced FCV.

21506 Views 86 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  MarcDannenberg
Toyota introduces advanced FCV:


Please forgive the author's ignorance of hybrid vehicles. The author tries to compare a parallel hybrid to a fuel cell vehicle, and totally botches it. It's best to stick to the first couple paragraphs.

The race for fuel cell vehicles is on.
1 - 15 of 87 Posts
It is good to see Hydrogen technology coming back. It was a hot item two years ago but dropped off the radar. Though water is the base fuel for a hydrogen vehicle and is readily available. I wonder the cost of running a vehicle using water as a base fuel (to produce Hydrogen) as apposed to battery/electic. It will be interesting to see a comparison.

Hydrogen generated from the wall socket is around four times less efficient. You are using wall electricity to produce two gasses (one is thrown away - oxygen) and additional energy is used to compress and store that extremely light gas. Going right from the wall socket to the battery is just too simple for some people. Please search around this forum for many discussions on this topic. Let us know what you conclude. It's just plain madness and no, hydrogen is not making a comeback. We are at a point in the research and development cycle where all the invested money from the governments around the world must start to demonstrate progress or risk cuts in funding. Don't worry, that funding is mostly going towards the electrification of the chassis so it’s very useful research and development. I support it completely and wish them all the luck in the world. They will not however be able to compete against the quick-charge BEV. I placed my bets and we need to wait about 5 years to see who was right.
See less See more
I can't figure out if all of these post our being sarcastic are not. How is using electricity to convert water to hydrogen so you can create electricity a better deal than just electricity??? :confused:

Don't worry omegaman66, Jason might be playing his Colbert routine but many people still think that hydrogen is a better energy solution. Quick charge lithium-ion batteries exist and will go on sale in the next few months (see my other posts). The cost of hydrogen tanks, fuel cells, efficiency losses, etc. are enormous obstacles to overcome. Did you know that the thickness of the best carbon fiber hydrogen storage tanks that are going to be used in cars (Quantum) are more than 4 inches thick and must be certified to hold over 25,000 lbs of hydrogen?! You won't see the costs of all of the high pressure systems coming down anytime soon. I'm betting the costs of quick-charge batteries will fall faster than the costs of hydrogen systems. Place your bets. In five years we will all know who was right.

Oh, I would like people to research the storage and transportation of liquid hydrogen before making any predictions of it's widespread use. The following will give you a good taste as to what we are up against. If you think hydrogen storage is a done deal after reading this please read it again. ;)

After reading the article you will discover that it’s not a simple process and that a given amount of hydrogen must be vented off or a dangerous situation will occur. Sending a ship of liquid hydrogen from Europe to the US would probably result in the loss of more than 25% alone! Put in all the other losses from the generation of the hydrogen and you don't have to be a PhD to realize other forms of renewable energy will be far cheaper.
See less See more
Rant and rave against hydrogen all you want, but Iceland and Japan, which have been historically resource poor, will finally be resource rich island nations.


Ha! Now I know you have lost it. Please explain to your fans exactly how Japan, which now imports most of it's energy, is going to first eliminate all of that imported energy demand, then use extra energy to generate the hydrogen? Where are they going to get the energy? Sun? Wind? Tidal? Nuclear? If they started today with an Apollo like project how long would it take? Please give us the details of your thoughts.
I purchased the plans for a Hydrogen generator from It is a specific type of PVC tube you build yourself capped at both ends with two metal cylinders, one inside the other, inside. There is some fabrication involving simple tools. The electrical charge from the car battery is boosted by capacitors you can buy at any Radio Shack. There is a small company in Kentucky which was featured on NBC Nightly News which will do the installation for around $2,000 USD. I heard GM has bought the patent on this simple type of generator to be installed in cars like the Volt. This generator is an adjunct to other fuel types(such as electricity). A car the size of the Volt could run on Hydrogen provided by 2 liters of water for approximately a month,with battery power as its principal mode of locomotion.
My car runs on the hot air generated by your foolishness.
References please. Let me check things out and see why they are not being used today.
Solar energy combined with hydrogen is better than electric from the grid to power an erev.

You just used a huge brush to paint that statement. In what way is it better? Efficiency? Cost? Please support your arguments.
Even though I also feel that the BEV will beat the pants off of the hydrogen car I think hydrogen research and development should continue. It has been argued extensively in the past that hydrogen may be the only alternative for some niche markets. However, The focus should be on exactly what Koz just posted, "advancement of batteries, electric drivetrain components, range extending power generation, AND charging infrastructure. " BEVs and plug-in hybrids will get us where we need to be - independence from petroleum imports. I don't know what the exact economic ramifications will be but what we are doing now is killing us with a slow bleed. A Band-Aid is not going to do it. We need to stitch that up (or should I say sew that limb back on).

I might be the only one who read your link, but I don't see anything stating $4000/kWh for Fuel Cells in 2010, if I am wrong, please point it out to me. The chart and table on page 5 is talking about storage tanks and not the cost of the fuel cell itself. And it's quoting the DOE target a $4/kWh for the storage tank in 2010. Don't seen anything that states that the chart is listed in thousands of dollars. This chart is also only probabilities and not reality.
So you are saying a hydrogen fuel tank that holds the equivalent energy of the Volt's battery pack (16 kWh) would only cost $4/kWh * 16 = $64

BigRedFed, What are you saying?
Enginair has a rotary air motor, which would be good as a range extender.

Please tell us how heavy the car you are proposing is and how far this range extender is supposed to go. I will then calculate how big your trailer needs to be to hold the compressed air tanks. ;)

I know I keep bringing it up but you keep saying compressed air will work as a range extender. The other thread already proved it's not viable.
I am saying that the document is simply quoting a DOE target. So yes, the DOE targets, according to the document, hydrogen storage equivalent to the Volt battery pack at approx $64. According to the document though, they are predicting that it will be about four to five times that expensive, or around $250 - $320. Still cheaper than a volt battery to store the equivalent amount of energy.
Is that just the cost of the tank or all of the systems needed:

Do realize those tanks are over 4 inches thick of extremely expensive carbon fiber, have limited life and will probably need to be water tested every 5 years? That's what the DOD currently requires for high pressure tanks that travel on the road. Only $64 for 16 kWh? Bull$%^&. YOU ARE DREAMING... PLEASE WAKE UP.
See less See more
Koz, I couldn’t agree with you more on the subject of hydrogen. Jason, what's killing me is that your head is thicker than the carbon fiber tanks! Seeing the costs come down? What are you talking about? To me they are only science projects at this point. Far behind the BEV or plug-in hybrid. However, like I always have to say... We will see in five years.
I believe air motors will succeed in meeting this mandate, but the big automakers will prefer to deliver fuel cells, as it is the future.
You have lost your mind! lol. I wish that you would print out what you just wrote and paste it on your wall. Then read it in a few years. My one thought is how are you going to justify your obvious error? Will you say that X technology came out and that's why hydrogen didn't make it or that Z technology made the air motor not cost effective. I doubt you will say, "Those guys were right and I was so wrong. I'm ashamed." lol. No way. We placed our bets. What was that, one crisp dollar? I want to collect on it! Date - Summer of 2013 - Volt club meeting.
A Cost Comparison of Fuel-Cell and Battery Electric Vehicles

3. Conclusion
We use widely-cited government
studies to directly compare the costs
associated with producing and refueling
FCVs and BEVs. The analysis is based
on an automobile model (similar to a
Honda Civic) that is representative of the
largest segment of the automobile
market. A comparison is important since
the government and industry are
devoting increasing amounts of resources
to the goal of developing a marketable
ZEV and the BEV and the FCV are
currently the only feasible alternatives.
We find that government studies
indicate that it would be far cheaper, in
terms of production and refueling costs,
to develop a BEV, even if we do not
consider the substantial cost of building
and maintaining the hydrogen
infrastructure on which the FCV would
depend. Specifically, the results show
that in an economy based on renewable
energy, the FCV requires production of
between 2.4 and 2.6 times more energy
than a comparable BEV. The FCV
propulsion system weighs 43% more,
consumes nearly three-times more space
onboard the vehicle for the same power
output, and costs approximately 46%
more than the BEV system. Further, the
refueling cost of a FCV is nearly threetimes
greater. Finally, when we relax the
renewable energy assumption, the BEV
is still more efficient, cleaner, and vastly
less expensive in terms of manufacturing,
refueling, and infrastructure investment.
See less See more

Once again, you use metrics like efficiency, size and weight, when the number that consumers look for is upfront costs. For a BEV, the upfront cost of the battery pack is $20K, whereas I've seen figures for the GM fuel cell that puts its cost between $4,500 and $6,000.

Please give us any reference at all. Any. "I've seen figures" doesn't hold much water. I hope you agree. Please don't forget to include the cost of the storage system. If it’s a high pressure system don't forget to include the testing and required replacement costs (DOT currently requires any high pressure tanks carried on the road to be tested every 5 years and replaced every 10). Nobody knows what the new laws will be but I hope people can agree that a testing and replacement policy is a good idea. Imagine a 15 year old 10,000 psi hydrogen tank that has never been tested and is in very poor condition. Slightly dangerous?

If the consumer is only looking at the upfront costs then why are they not out buying huge SUVs and trucks? You can pick one up anywhere at half the price they were last year. Nobody wants them. Why? Because they are not afraid of the upfront cost. They are afraid to go to the gas station and pay for the fuel.

The way consumers think about vehicle costs is going to change. The technology is changing and the cost of fuel has now become a major point. Fuel costs in the past were not considered because they were such a small percentage of a drivers budget. I think we can all agree that situation has changed. What has also changed is that drivers have no idea what the cost of fuel will be in the next few years. When the BEV and hydrogen car hit the market the consumer is going to be well aware of the operating costs. The BEV will be several orders of magnitude cheaper to refuel and maintain. We will find out soon enough.
See less See more

Unfortunately, the article didn't have searchable terms that I could effectively use on Google without getting a million hits, it merely stated that today's fuel cells cost 3X to 4X that of an ICE, so feel free to search anything in that last phrase, and see what comes up.

You are forgetting about the PFCV configuration, in which people will be using hydrogen far less frequently than they are using gasoline now.

Moreover, the value of rapid refill will far outweigh any fuel cost concerns, especially when their first 40 miles is cheap.

Well, I couldn't find any good reference on what you claim. Everything I see points to hydrogen being very expensive when compared to BEV technology.

I'm not forgetting about the PFCV. It is basically an advanced hybrid solution that requires not only plugging in but also trips to the non-existent hydrogen refueling stations.

It is my contention that the quick-charge BEV will beat the hydrogen car and it's required infrastructure in the market place. Of course we both know each other's position on this subject. I will be looking forward to collecting my dollar prize.
1 - 15 of 87 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.