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Discussion Starter #1
Toyota introduces advanced FCV:

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Please forgive the author's ignorance of hybrid vehicles. The author tries to compare a parallel hybrid to a fuel cell vehicle, and totally botches it. It's best to stick to the first couple paragraphs.

The race for fuel cell vehicles is on.
 

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I am betting that hydrogen will basically fizzle out, much like food-based ethanol will.

As batteries get better and better, BEVs will be come the clear and easy choice. It's simply because every home already has the infrastructure (electric power) to charge em! We will still need "fueling stations" for quick charging, but of course, only for road trips.

Fueling companies won't like it, and I hope they don't have much influence on our auto companies, but who knows....
 

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Toyota's latest fuel cell

Toyota's new fuel cell looks like a winner. It also looks like Toyota's moving up their intro of the 2009 next generation Prius.
 

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The thing about hydrogen that makes it better than electric is. They will have converters that hit water with an electric charge to add a hydrogen atom and then will separate the hydrogen out. Then you will have a continuous supply of hydrogen. Then you can fuel your car at home and power a generator for your home for all of your power needs. You will not need the electric company.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think PFCV's will be the ultimate config - it's easy to store hydrogen, than build 1 or more powerstations on every corner. It will have the same 40 mile (and up to 100 miles eventually) initial EV range with a hydrogen fuel cell for long trips.
 

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Here is Honda's hydrogen home fueling station. All you would need is a hydrogen powered generator and a hydrogen car and one of these bad boys and you wouldn't need an electric company. Hydrogen is clearly the future. The first one is the one that Honda is using with natural gas. The second link shows how to get hydrogen from water.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/nov2007/bw20071127_309229.htm?chan=autos_autos+index+page_top+stories

http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm
 

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It is good to see Hydrogen technology coming back. It was a hot item two years ago but dropped off the radar. Though water is the base fuel for a hydrogen vehicle and is readily available. I wonder the cost of running a vehicle using water as a base fuel (to produce Hydrogen) as apposed to battery/electic. It will be interesting to see a comparison.
 

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It is good to see Hydrogen technology coming back. It was a hot item two years ago but dropped off the radar. Though water is the base fuel for a hydrogen vehicle and is readily available. I wonder the cost of running a vehicle using water as a base fuel (to produce Hydrogen) as apposed to battery/electic. It will be interesting to see a comparison.

Hydrogen generated from the wall socket is around four times less efficient. You are using wall electricity to produce two gasses (one is thrown away - oxygen) and additional energy is used to compress and store that extremely light gas. Going right from the wall socket to the battery is just too simple for some people. Please search around this forum for many discussions on this topic. Let us know what you conclude. It's just plain madness and no, hydrogen is not making a comeback. We are at a point in the research and development cycle where all the invested money from the governments around the world must start to demonstrate progress or risk cuts in funding. Don't worry, that funding is mostly going towards the electrification of the chassis so it’s very useful research and development. I support it completely and wish them all the luck in the world. They will not however be able to compete against the quick-charge BEV. I placed my bets and we need to wait about 5 years to see who was right.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Texas,

Too late. Japan and Iceland recognize the wealth their nations can create by using their vast geothermal energy sources to generate hydrogen for export, so it will flourish in their nations. If it flourishes there, it will be a competitor in the US market, and it will force battery makers to create rapid refill batteries, or be relegated to a mere 40 mile initial range for a fuel cell range extended vehicle.
 

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I can't figure out if all of these post our being sarcastic are not. How is using electricity to convert water to hydrogen so you can create electricity a better deal than just electricity??? :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I can't figure out if all of these post our being sarcastic are not. How is using electricity to convert water to hydrogen so you can create electricity a better deal than just electricity??? :confused:
Two ways:

1) Rapid refill - you can recharge your hydrogen tank in 5 - 15 minutes.

2) Batteries are very expensive. Current 200+ mile range BEV's cost $100K as a direct result of the battery costs. Honda and Toyota are marketing next gen FCV's that will be much cheaper to purchase. GM is setting up a fuel cell range extender arrangement using the Volt platform, so that their fuel cell is only 70 hp, instead of 150 - 200 hp, as in typical FCV's, so it will be cheaper still.
 

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I can't figure out if all of these post our being sarcastic are not. How is using electricity to convert water to hydrogen so you can create electricity a better deal than just electricity??? :confused:

Don't worry omegaman66, Jason might be playing his Colbert routine but many people still think that hydrogen is a better energy solution. Quick charge lithium-ion batteries exist and will go on sale in the next few months (see my other posts). The cost of hydrogen tanks, fuel cells, efficiency losses, etc. are enormous obstacles to overcome. Did you know that the thickness of the best carbon fiber hydrogen storage tanks that are going to be used in cars (Quantum) are more than 4 inches thick and must be certified to hold over 25,000 lbs of hydrogen?! You won't see the costs of all of the high pressure systems coming down anytime soon. I'm betting the costs of quick-charge batteries will fall faster than the costs of hydrogen systems. Place your bets. In five years we will all know who was right.

Oh, I would like people to research the storage and transportation of liquid hydrogen before making any predictions of it's widespread use. The following will give you a good taste as to what we are up against. If you think hydrogen storage is a done deal after reading this please read it again. ;)

https://www.llnl.gov/str/June03/Aceves.html

After reading the article you will discover that it’s not a simple process and that a given amount of hydrogen must be vented off or a dangerous situation will occur. Sending a ship of liquid hydrogen from Europe to the US would probably result in the loss of more than 25% alone! Put in all the other losses from the generation of the hydrogen and you don't have to be a PhD to realize other forms of renewable energy will be far cheaper.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Rant and rave against hydrogen all you want, but Iceland and Japan, which have been historically resource poor, will finally be resource rich island nations.

New compression and storage techs, as well as on site generation of hydrogen will limit transport concerns. Moreover, microfuel cells are growing in use, so people will become comfortable with fuel cells long before quick car batteries for automotive applications actually show up.
 

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Texas,

Of course, if one were to ship liquid hydrogen, one would use as much as possible of the vented hydrogen as the energy source for the transport.

All your other points are well taken.
 

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Rant and rave against hydrogen all you want, but Iceland and Japan, which have been historically resource poor, will finally be resource rich island nations.

QUOTE]

Ha! Now I know you have lost it. Please explain to your fans exactly how Japan, which now imports most of it's energy, is going to first eliminate all of that imported energy demand, then use extra energy to generate the hydrogen? Where are they going to get the energy? Sun? Wind? Tidal? Nuclear? If they started today with an Apollo like project how long would it take? Please give us the details of your thoughts.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Rant and rave against hydrogen all you want, but Iceland and Japan, which have been historically resource poor, will finally be resource rich island nations.

QUOTE]

Ha! Now I know you have lost it. Please explain to your fans exactly how Japan, which now imports most of it's energy, is going to first eliminate all of that imported energy demand, then use extra energy to generate the hydrogen? Where are they going to get the energy? Sun? Wind? Tidal? Nuclear? If they started today with an Apollo like project how long would it take? Please give us the details of your thoughts.
Geothermal - Japan is an island situated on the Pacific Ring of Fire.
 

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Hydrogen Generator

I purchased the plans for a Hydrogen generator from runyourcaronwater.com. It is a specific type of PVC tube you build yourself capped at both ends with two metal cylinders, one inside the other, inside. There is some fabrication involving simple tools. The electrical charge from the car battery is boosted by capacitors you can buy at any Radio Shack. There is a small company in Kentucky which was featured on NBC Nightly News which will do the installation for around $2,000 USD. I heard GM has bought the patent on this simple type of generator to be installed in cars like the Volt. This generator is an adjunct to other fuel types(such as electricity). A car the size of the Volt could run on Hydrogen provided by 2 liters of water for approximately a month,with battery power as its principal mode of locomotion.
 

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I purchased the plans for a Hydrogen generator from runyourcaronwater.com. It is a specific type of PVC tube you build yourself capped at both ends with two metal cylinders, one inside the other, inside. There is some fabrication involving simple tools. The electrical charge from the car battery is boosted by capacitors you can buy at any Radio Shack. There is a small company in Kentucky which was featured on NBC Nightly News which will do the installation for around $2,000 USD. I heard GM has bought the patent on this simple type of generator to be installed in cars like the Volt. This generator is an adjunct to other fuel types(such as electricity). A car the size of the Volt could run on Hydrogen provided by 2 liters of water for approximately a month,with battery power as its principal mode of locomotion.
My car runs on the hot air generated by your foolishness.
 

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... additional energy is used to compress and store that extremely light gas....
There is a very efficient process that removes this step, and it is very simple. Do the electrolysis under very high water pressure. The separated gasses are already compressed. Compressed gasses stores energy, aside from the energy of hydrogen itself. The compressed gasses can also be utilized just like in cars running on compresed gas, but after the decompression step, you can use the gasses for the fuel cells. The Dutch were the first to pioneer the approach of doing electrolysis under high pressure and temperature... The overall efficiency if you can recapture the energy of the compressed gasses plus the energy value of hydrogen is nearing 90%, but still not as good as some energy recharged unto batteries.
 
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