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That's interesting...may be worth posting this on the home page for everyone else.

Still, I want a BEV, darnit! I'm glad to see competitors of the Volt...better prices for the consumer and quicker death to OPEC!
 

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Bwah hah hah hah haaaaaaaa! 2 years behind GM!
It is pretty cool to see them get a little egg on their face, but they have enormous resources, are probably turning a profit even now in a global down turn and retains armies of capable engineers. That 2 year head start could shrink rapidly if they set their collective will behind it. It's one of the things the Japanese have always done very well... copy.
 

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"It's one of the things the Japanese have always done very well... copy." - DaV8or

And what, pray tell, is the Prius a copy of?

"Bwah hah hah hah haaaaaaaa! 2 years behind GM!" - Hendler

Toyota leads GM 30,000 hybrids to 1,137 for the most recent month reported. "Bwah hah hah hah haaaaaaa" indeed.

By the way, the 3 Tahoe hybrids on the local dealer lot are... still on the local dealer lot. The eldest has been there at least 36 days. GM marketing genius: a Lexus hybrid SUV is cheaper than a Chevrolet hybrid SUV.

Toyotas PHEVs are being tested on the road, today. None of this "test mule, closed track" foolishness.

"2 years behind GM" is nothing but wishful thinking. The Volt is still 30 months away. Toyota did the original Prius in that time.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It is pretty cool to see them get a little egg on their face, but they have enormous resources, are probably turning a profit even now in a global down turn and retains armies of capable engineers. That 2 year head start could shrink rapidly if they set their collective will behind it. It's one of the things the Japanese have always done very well... copy.
In order for the US to get the energy trade deficit (and overall trade deficit) back in balance, we will need all major automakers in the US market to produce REEV's as fast as they can. Less oil imports mean a stronger dollar, coupled with less demand, means cheaper oil, which reduces the deficit more, and so on - time to reverse the current death spiral.

It will be interesting to see how the Japanese approach this wide open field. I suspect that you are right, and that they will just copy the Volt and add a digital clock to it.
 

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... and it shows ...
At 20K units/month, it shows something, all right. It outsells every car in GM's lineup except the Impala and, if you considered retail sales only, would be ahead of the Impala, too. And today, there's a long waiting list for it and people willing to pay over MSRP for it.

In order for the US to get the energy trade deficit (and overall trade deficit) back in balance, we will need all major automakers in the US market to produce REEV's as fast as they can.
The Prius gets close to 50mpg where other cars would get 25You should send Toyota a note of gratitude. What's GM done for us, to date? Besides build fleets of Yukaburbahoes?

Even though the Prius still burns gas, the millions that they will have sold by the time the first Volt ships will probably save more gas than the first 5 years of Volt production. And only if the Volt sells very well. If it sells poorly, gas saved by the Prius will run ahead of gas saved by the Volt for a decade or more.
 

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At 20K units/month, it shows something, all right. It outsells every car in GM's lineup except the Impala and, if you considered retail sales only, would be ahead of the Impala, too. And today, there's a long waiting list for it and people willing to pay over MSRP for it.



The Prius gets close to 50mpg where other cars would get 25You should send Toyota a note of gratitude. What's GM done for us, to date? Besides build fleets of Yukaburbahoes?

Even though the Prius still burns gas, the millions that they will have sold by the time the first Volt ships will probably save more gas than the first 5 years of Volt production. And only if the Volt sells very well. If it sells poorly, gas saved by the Prius will run ahead of gas saved by the Volt for a decade or more.

dagwood, You might as well give it up. Arguing with Jason is about as useful as banging your head against the wall. In his mind he is never wrong regardless of what those silly numbers and statistics say. I believe he tries to use some humorous Colbert routine but your guess is as good as mine. Most of the time he just spouts off craziness to get a rise out of people. I like to argue his points because some of the crazy things he says are common folklore. Thus, responding to some of the things he brings up is like responding to the masses. Good preparation. If you go too far however (please see the air car thread) you will find that it serves no purpose. Nobody is going to read though that and learn anything. Don't worry, most of us do appreciate what the Prius is and has done for the hybrid market. Only fan-boys cannot see the significance. If you keep it going, please wrap a towel around your head to dull the pain. ;)
 

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The Prius gets close to 50mpg where other cars would get 25You should send Toyota a note of gratitude.
Grateful to Toyota, because they had a hybrid vehicle in their product lineup for 10 years just waiting for an oil crisis? Proper focus should be on the derision of liberals who have hamstrung domestic oil companies from extracting oil from our own territories.
 

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"Grateful to Toyota, because they had a hybrid vehicle in their product lineup for 10 years just waiting for an oil crisis?" - Hendler

Yes. The Scout motto is "Be Prepared." Apparently, Toyota shares some values with the Scouts.

We've had recurring, sharp, oil price spikes since 1973. GM's motto is "Be Surprised - and then crank up the spin machine."

"Proper focus should be on the derision of liberals who have hamstrung domestic oil companies from extracting oil from our own territories." - Hendler

I'm not going to deride liberals for wanting to bank oil for future generations. And, strategically, "run out of oil first," is a pretty bad plan. We should have been taking steps, all along, to manage our demand for oil, keep prices low and drain the OPEC nations dry first.

Texas, Well, that does explain the persistent bleeding lump on my forehead doesn't it? *:)
 

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Grateful to Toyota, because they had a hybrid vehicle in their product lineup for 10 years just waiting for an oil crisis? Proper focus should be on the derision of liberals who have hamstrung domestic oil companies from extracting oil from our own territories.
Blame Democrats when it was Republicans who recently held the White House and both houses for 6 years and did nothing except dig a whole big enough to bury us all in. Oh yeah, I forgot, you're a comedy routine. Nice one, dude.
 

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And what, pray tell, is the Prius a copy of?
Well, I wouldn't say that the Prius is an exact copy of anything in particular, however before we get too righteous about all things Japanese and their ingenuity, it might be useful to note that in 1993 GM <edit> started work then built, tested and showed the world a hybrid car called the Precept in 2000<edit>. It was a diesel electric hybrid that got 80 mpg. Precept, Prius... hmmm. Of course before that in 1969 GM built tested and showed the world the XP-883 concept, a gasoline electric hybrid long before the miracle workers at Toyota and Honda reigned hybrid supremacy. Below are the best pictures I could easily find.
 

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Well, I wouldn't say that the Prius is an exact copy of anything in particular, however before we get too righteous about all things Japanese and their ingenuity, it might be useful to note that in 1993 GM built, tested and showed the world a hybrid car called the Precept." - DaV8or

"Cooooooooopyyyyyy, copy, copy ......" - Hendler

DaV8or, I'm surprised at you. Hendler gets up early to get extra mistakes into each day but I thought you were more reliable.

The Precept concept was rolled out in 2000, two years and change after the Prius was introduced in Japan. And the drivetrain was completely unlike HSD. Of course, it was never actually built and I doubt that GM loaned Toyota and Honda complementary copies to copy or any of their test or R&D data to copy and someone would have had to hire Mr. Peabody and his Wayback so that Toyota could copy something that was two years into the future...

It's true, of course, that the shapes are similar but that's just aerodynamics dictating the form. In fact, the Precept had an amazingly low coefficient of drag, reputedly .16. The current Prius, by way of comparison, checks in at .26. It will be a real disappointment if GM doesn't beat that but, based on what Lutz recently said, I'm fully prepared for disappointment.
 

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In fact, the Precept had an amazingly low coefficient of drag, reputedly .16. The current Prius, by way of comparison, checks in at .26.
.16 coefficient of drag? Are you sure? That a surprise to me. Precept's coefficient of drag even beat the EV-1's coefficient of drag .19. I still have a hard time to beleve that info.
 

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.16 coefficient of drag? Are you sure? That a surprise to me. Precept's coefficient of drag even beat the EV-1's coefficient of drag .19. I still have a hard time to beleve that info.
If you notice the Saline Racing SR7, it, like the Precept, has a significant amount of body behind the rear wheels. Saline didn't post their drag coefficient, but they have the fastest 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of any production vehicle, while achieving a greater than 1G downforce.

Link

It sure seems that additional length behind the wheels is critical to reduce the turbulence behind the vehicle, which adds drag. Aptera talked about having a blower to take air coming in the front of the vehicle, and blowing it out the back end to eliminate any turbulence.
 

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Wikipedia's automotive drag coefficient table here

Cd = 0.16 looks right for the 2000 Precept.

The site makes a good point that the more important value is CdA, the net effective drag area, rather than just pure Cd. A great Cd with a large gross frontal area is as bad as a poor Cd with a small gross area. CdA is what determines total drag Hp requirements at various speeds.

FYI, here's the wikipedia discussion on Kamm's discovery in 1930. You don't have to taper all the way back to a point to get the same or better Cd as a full teardrop aero shape. Kammback
 

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DaV8or, I'm surprised at you. Hendler gets up early to get extra mistakes into each day but I thought you were more reliable.

The Precept concept was rolled out in 2000, two years and change after the Prius was introduced in Japan. And the drivetrain was completely unlike HSD. Of course, it was never actually built and I doubt that GM loaned Toyota and Honda complementary copies to copy or any of their test or R&D data to copy and someone would have had to hire Mr. Peabody and his Wayback so that Toyota could copy something that was two years into the future...
Wow. Ooops. I stand corrected and humbled. I was searching this morning for photos of the XP-883 concept and stumbled across the Precept concept, a car I never heard of. The site I got the picture from said 1993, but in my haste I failed to read that the Precept program started in 1993 and then it was finally shown in 2000. I shouldn't smoke crack in the morning.:rolleyes: My apologies on the Precept.
 

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DaV8or, I wait 'til the end of the day to get high. I apologize for being snarky.

The Precept was very, very cool. Thanks for the pic. If only GM had kept at it.

I had entirely forgotten the XP-883. Looks like a cross between a Vega and an Avanti.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Wikipedia's automotive drag coefficient table here

Cd = 0.16 looks right for the 2000 Precept.

The site makes a good point that the more important value is CdA, the net effective drag area, rather than just pure Cd. A great Cd with a large gross frontal area is as bad as a poor Cd with a small gross area. CdA is what determines total drag Hp requirements at various speeds.

FYI, here's the wikipedia discussion on Kamm's discovery in 1930. You don't have to taper all the way back to a point to get the same or better Cd as a full teardrop aero shape. Kammback
Could be why GM stated that the Volt may be a hatchback, as that lends itself nicely to a Kammback configuration.
 
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