GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 56 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,340 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Or is he: http://electrek.co/2016/05/27/elon-musk-taxes-tesla-tsla-stock-option/

"t’s not clear how much taxes Musk will have to pay exactly, but the last exercised price was $6.63 per share so he had to pay $36,491,334 to acquire the shares in the first place – leaving around $557 million. Considering he will have to pay a normal income tax rate (52% in California) on the net gain of over $200 million in the previous two transactions and over $1.1 billion in the one closed this week, but after a donation of 1.2 million shares worth over $250 million to charity, it’s not difficult to believe Tesla’s claim that all proceeds from Musk’s stock sale will go toward paying taxes."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,410 Posts
Oh, wait, giving large donations to charities isn't exactly tax neutral! Let's check this a bit further. I am not exactly a tax adviser based in California or something, so a specialized professional would probably do better, but here's the thing:

Both at the state level and at the Federal Level, there are possible deductions for donations to charities. There have varying natures, but can easily be used to deduct 20-50% of the gross income.
It's thus not a coincidence that Elon Musk's donation is ~22.5% of the taxable gain. This is so because for long term gains of the kind Elon Musk will post, up to 20% of the gross income can be deducted. Of course, Elon Musk will have other income beyond this gain which can also be covered, hence the small excess (22.5% vs 20%).
Thus, Elon Musk is likely to see his tax bill be 20% lower than the amount used to say "he's just selling to pay taxes". This is so because the $245.6 million donation is used to deduct from the $1090 taxable gain. If we assume up to 20% of the taxable gain can be deducted, then the taxable gain becomes $872 million instead of $1090 million. To this we apply the 51.9% tax rate, and Elon gets to pay $452.5 million in taxes instead of $567.5 million. The difference, ~$113 million, he gets to keep....:)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
I suspect he's selling and paying taxes at the reduced capital gains rate in order to buy more shares with a higher basis which will reduce his taxes in the future. Nothing wrong with this but it's just financial machinations.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to intuitively understand that when a CEO is selling and buying at the same time that it's highly likely the entire transaction is purely tax driven. Otherwise why bother?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,558 Posts
I'd be happy with just 2 or 3 of those million. Although we balk at the absurd size of elon's numbers, the man deserves what he has been awarded in stock options. I'm kicking myself for not getting in on tesla shares early on, but I got burned in the 90s on Vector Automotive shares (ended up worthless) I decided as much as I am a car enthusiast, I don't know enough about the industry to make good decisions. The tech sector on the other hand... I made a mint after dot bomb on Apple, Akamai, and Amazon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
Don't see why all the hate towards him... the man pays more in tax than any of us could ever dream of even earning. He's more than carrying his weight. Until he breaks the law, nobody has the right to really say anything.

His level of success? This is a man who's been thinking 10 steps ahead of everyone else for almost 20 years now.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
301 Posts
Don't see why all the hate towards him... the man pays more in tax than any of us could ever dream of even earning. He's more than carrying his weight. Until he breaks the law, nobody has the right to really say anything.

His level of success? This is a man who's been thinking 10 steps ahead of everyone else for almost 20 years now.
It is called envy and the fact that he can make an electric car that will outsell every electric car that has ever come to market. This butthurts a lot of the bow tie crowd into making mountains out of mole hills.

Remember a couple months ago when Tesla told owners to bring in their cars for a fix that probably won't be needed but do it just in case. This place went nuts with how unreliable Tesla is and how they are making ****ty cars. Fast forward to the last couple of days and GM just made a massive 2.2 million car recall and not a peep.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,410 Posts
It is called envy and the fact that he can make an electric car that will outsell every electric car that has ever come to market. This butthurts a lot of the bow tie crowd into making mountains out of mole hills.

Remember a couple months ago when Tesla told owners to bring in their cars for a fix that probably won't be needed but do it just in case. This place went nuts with how unreliable Tesla is and how they are making ****ty cars. Fast forward to the last couple of days and GM just made a massive 2.2 million car recall and not a peep.
It just made the news on 27 May... http://time.com/4350396/gm-recalls-2-2-million-cars-in-china/

Maybe some of us were out doing things this Memorial Day Weekend...like putting flags on fallen servicemen's graves...:(

Recall Reason...insufficient corrosion resistance on crankcase valves.

And no one is saying you can't post this article...:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,431 Posts
Wow! Your tax laws are complicated! Here our total donations to charities are limited to 30% of the total income (before deductions).

BTW, one Congressman proposed an even simpler tax law that had three line:

1. State total amount of income.
2. State amount remaining after paying debts.
3. Send that amount in.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
Remember a couple months ago when Tesla told owners to bring in their cars for a fix that probably won't be needed but do it just in case. This place went nuts with how unreliable Tesla is and how they are making ****ty cars. Fast forward to the last couple of days and GM just made a massive 2.2 million car recall and not a peep.
Funny. The people I know who have a Model S take it in all the time, mostly because their cars aren't working. No idea what you're talking about exactly on the recall, but anyone who doesn't recognize that the build quality of a Tesla is substandard needs to put the crack pipe down. If the Model S and Model X aren't the least reliable cars they are certainly in the running for the title, and the constant claim that the problems are due to a few early production issues is comical at this point.

Tesla would be better off if it skipped the production part and let someone like Magna Steyr, which knows how to produce a car, handle the production. Can't see why that wouldn't work. Then again the problem may be on the design front, which likely even Magna Steyr couldn't fix.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,558 Posts
Wow! Your tax laws are complicated! Here our total donations to charities are limited to 30% of the total income (before deductions).

BTW, one Congressman proposed an even simpler tax law that had three line:

1. State total amount of income.
2. State amount remaining after paying debts.
3. Send that amount in.
That is insane as it will cause people to purposely get into more debt in order to not pay taxes. I prefer

A. State total amount of income
B. Compute a fixed percent (someone smarter than me can figure out what this should be: 20%, 25%, 30%, etc)
C. Send that amount in -

Better yet, just automatically withdraw that from pay checks so people don't feel sick writing that check on April 15th. Do you now how much of a revolution we'd have you received your full check with no withholdings then had to cut a check every 2 weeks to the US government to pay your taxes? I think people would get much more active at making sure the government was using the money wisely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Better yet, just automatically withdraw that from pay checks so people don't feel sick writing that check on April 15th. Do you now how much of a revolution we'd have you received your full check with no withholdings then had to cut a check every 2 weeks to the US government to pay your taxes? I think people would get much more active at making sure the government was using the money wisely.
What I wish is that our gubmit would allow us to earmark a percentage of our taxes (after basic government maintenance costs were accounted for) for the initiatives that we as individual taxpayers prefer to support. I wonder how okay people would be with the amount of money we are currently spending on foreign military actions and corporate subsidies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,558 Posts
What I wish is that our gubmit would allow us to earmark a percentage of our taxes (after basic government maintenance costs were accounted for) for the initiatives that we as individual taxpayers prefer to support. I wonder how okay people would be with the amount of money we are currently spending on foreign military actions and corporate subsidies.
But then everyone would earmark their taxes go into a tax credit to buy a new EV....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,539 Posts
Wow! Your tax laws are complicated! Here our total donations to charities are limited to 30% of the total income (before deductions).

BTW, one Congressman proposed an even simpler tax law that had three line:

1. State total amount of income.
2. State amount remaining after paying debts.
3. Send that amount in.
1. $1090 million.
2. Pay self $2000 million.
..... Total debt = -£910 million.
3. Here's my debt of £910 million. Please sent US treasury check to settle my debt, immediately.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
301 Posts
Funny. The people I know who have a Model S take it in all the time, mostly because their cars aren't working. No idea what you're talking about exactly on the recall, but anyone who doesn't recognize that the build quality of a Tesla is substandard needs to put the crack pipe down. If the Model S and Model X aren't the least reliable cars they are certainly in the running for the title, and the constant claim that the problems are due to a few early production issues is comical at this point.

Tesla would be better off if it skipped the production part and let someone like Magna Steyr, which knows how to produce a car, handle the production. Can't see why that wouldn't work. Then again the problem may be on the design front, which likely even Magna Steyr couldn't fix.
No it seems your the comic. Please ask these "friends" what the problem is and why they have to keep going back. You have had a bias against Tesla since as far back as this site goes so your "friends" data is hardly reliable.

But if we are going by friends data I have one that I convinced to get a volt and he had that thing in the shop at least 4 times a year while I have had mine in only twice in 3 years. So by your logic of friends data you would be smoking a crack pipe to think that Chevy isn't putting substandard cars on the road. (he now owns a Lexus)

Why don't you let those who own actually own a Tesla that have the highest satisfaction rating of any car be the ones who give first hand experience rather than your "friends".

I am friends with a lot more real model S owners than you and they don't seem to have any problems let alone ones with substandard build quality. I think you believe if you just keep saying bad things about the Tesla over and over that you can convince some people that there is a problem but I am not sure to what end as if they planned on buying a Tesla you probably won't convince them to buy a chevy and will get an ICE powered BMW instead which is has worse reliability ratings than the early Model S.

I also believe you were one of the loudest voices out there when that voluntary recall came from Tesla saying how big of a POS it is. I think I reminded you that Tesla actually gets out in front of any problem before it becomes a factor.

Here is that thread:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?236377-Tesla-recalls-Model-X-for-seat-problem

I wonder why you aren't nearly as critical of GM when they make massive recalls?

This is why even though it may make bad press Tesla will ask people to bring in their cars just in case something may be wrong. Contrast this with GM who puts in a known faulty ignition switch, tries to cover it up, gets sued, then gets the government involved then finally issues a recall after over 130 people have been killed. How many of those "substandard build qualities" from Tesla have killed people?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
301 Posts
It just made the news on 27 May... http://time.com/4350396/gm-recalls-2-2-million-cars-in-china/

Maybe some of us were out doing things this Memorial Day Weekend...like putting flags on fallen servicemen's graves...:(

Recall Reason...insufficient corrosion resistance on crankcase valves.

And no one is saying you can't post this article...:rolleyes:
Upper, never thought it couldn't be posted and please don't bring fallen servicemen graves as this happened on Thursday and I was still able to read about it and visit the fallen service members that were my in family.

Funny though you were able to post the the voluntary recall from Tesla the very same day it happened. Not putting flags on the graves then?

All I am saying is between you and DonC if this had happened to Tesla you two would have had 12 pages of hate on Tesla. Just think it is a little bit of a double standard. Especially with DonC being a mod.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
301 Posts
Sorry...I did find the story about GM CHINA until your post...and yes it takes a awhile putting out flags...maybe you ought to volunteer next year...
I put out 3 flags all on people that I knew so please don't be so condescending.

This is why I have an electric car. I want us off of oil as fast as possible. Keeping the jobs and money in this country will come from removing ourselves from oil. We will also crush some of our most insidious enemies without firing a shot by removing their financing. We will leave the middle east to what it has always been and forever will be a sand filled pit of animosity, mistrust and hate. They can go back to throwing sticks and rocks at each other because someone worships the same Allah slightly differently.

The fact that you can put so much hate towards a company that is trying so hard to take us off oil by not only providing outstanding cars that hundreds of thousands of people want but by also by GIVING all of their patents away.

I am sorry you can't get behind a Tesla and instead would rather break them down every chance you seem to get. If you keep hoping and doing everything in your power to badmouth Tesla every waiting with bated breath for their downfall what do you think will happen to the electric car movement it Tesla fails?

Let me ask you again because this is very important to our goal of electrifying the world:

What do you think would happen to the electric car movement if Tesla fails?

BTW thanks for taking the time to put flags on the fallen heroes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Why don't you let those who own actually own a Tesla that have the highest satisfaction rating of any car be the ones who give first hand experience rather than your "friends".

I am friends with a lot more real model S owners than you and they don't seem to have any problems let alone ones with substandard build quality. I think you believe if you just keep saying bad things about the Tesla over and over that you can convince some people that there is a problem but I am not sure to what end as if they planned on buying a Tesla you probably won't convince them to buy a chevy and will get an ICE powered BMW instead which is has worse reliability ratings than the early Model S.
http://247wallst.com/special-report/2016/02/26/americas-most-and-least-reliable-car-brands/

http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
2,356 Posts
If you've been following Tesla and Elon for a while, there have been many instances where they have said one thing and done another. I don't think pointing that out is "hate" or "envy;" it's just criticism. It's holding people accountable. The capital raise related to this thread is one example. In February it wasn't needed, so they said.

If GM changes course on something, people pile on about how they lied and what a horrible, evil company they are. This forum has as much or more criticism of GM than anywhere else I've seen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
...
Why don't you let those who own actually own a Tesla that have the highest satisfaction rating of any car be the ones who give first hand experience rather than your "friends".

...
Probably like the review I read for the MacBook Pro before I bought it. It is indestructible, faster than a Cray Jaguar, battery life is measured in months per charge, software selection was greater than all the x86 options ever written, and all the owners were willing to trade a first-born child for one.

Sadly, I'm actually sort of savvy when it comes to computers, and I had several notebooks to compare it to, and 3 other family members who use notebooks.

2 battery failures in a single year, which are not intended to be replaced by the user. Battery life in the real world was about 1/2 their advertised number. Trackpad failure. Poor software selection, and just as fast as computers costing 1/2 as much.

But it is pretty and fashionable. People love the crap out of them. Nobody in our house wanted it. No idea where it is now after 3 years. In a box somewhere? Doorstop? Who knows?

When an item is expensive in it's segment and fashionable, people do NOT want others to believe they are gullible, so they expound on the virtues of their purchase and hide the shortcomings. So getting an accurate review is problematic.

I've never even read a negative review of a Tesla in the press. It's the first and only perfect car ever sold. For those who have watched the parade, that should be a big warning flag. Cars that are Perfect, are Ferraris, AMG's, Porsches, McLarens, and other Exotics and limited editions. Because if you ever want to get full access to their stable, you better play nice with the MFR.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,410 Posts
I put out 3 flags all on people that I knew so please don't be so condescending.

This is why I have an electric car. I want us off of oil as fast as possible. Keeping the jobs and money in this country will come from removing ourselves from oil. We will also crush some of our most insidious enemies without firing a shot by removing their financing. We will leave the middle east to what it has always been and forever will be a sand filled pit of animosity, mistrust and hate. They can go back to throwing sticks and rocks at each other because someone worships the same Allah slightly differently.

The fact that you can put so much hate towards a company that is trying so hard to take us off oil by not only providing outstanding cars that hundreds of thousands of people want but by also by GIVING all of their patents away.

I am sorry you can't get behind a Tesla and instead would rather break them down every chance you seem to get. If you keep hoping and doing everything in your power to badmouth Tesla every waiting with bated breath for their downfall what do you think will happen to the electric car movement it Tesla fails?

Let me ask you again because this is very important to our goal of electrifying the world:

What do you think would happen to the electric car movement if Tesla fails?

BTW thanks for taking the time to put flags on the fallen heroes.
It will continue forward...similar to the safety movement in automobiles after Tucker failed

I am NOT against Tesla...I'm against the shifting speeches and the numbers that don't add up...:(
 
1 - 20 of 56 Posts
Top