[Qinsp]

Panasonic starts their own US Solar Company:
http://shop.panasonic.com/about-us-...are&siteID=TnL5HPStwNw-ke_pCGd3swRF.eYB8tJcuw

And they have their own Gigafactory for producing EV batteries!
https://panasonicmovesus.com/sustainable-energy/

Sure doesn't sound like Panasonic wants to known as a partner of Tesla anymore.

 

[Steverino]

That gigafactory may very well be referring to the Tesla facility.

 

[Upper5Percent]

While the details of the Panasonic-Tesla partnership are confidential, Tesla’s latest quarterly report acknowledges that it is committed to buying $1.7 billion of the cells produced at the Gigafactory, offsetting the $1.6 billion that Panasonic is investing in the facility.

Qinsp, you are aware the while Tesla might own the building...Walking around the factory, there are massive, two-story-high battery production lines owned by Panasonic. There are taped lines on the floor showing where the Tesla production floor ends and Panasonic's begins. Raw materials will go in one end, run through the line, and then spit out a battery cell, ready to be installed in Tesla battery packs on the next line.

 

[Mister Dave]

Panasonic starts their own US Solar Company:
http://shop.panasonic.com/about-us-...are&siteID=TnL5HPStwNw-ke_pCGd3swRF.eYB8tJcuw

That's really interesting considering this piece of news from last December: Panasonic will spend $256 million on Tesla solar panel factory in Buffalo, NY

And this from July: Panasonic plans job fairs for Tesla's solar panel factory

It sounds like Panasonic is taking over all Tesla solar production, perhaps in addition to their own.

And they have their own Gigafactory for producing EV batteries!
https://panasonicmovesus.com/sustainable-energy/

Either that link didn't show me anything, or I ran out of patience after the video ended. Here's an article on the Dalian, China factory from April: Panasonic Opens Its 1st EV Battery Factory In China

 

[Qinsp]

That gigafactory may very well be referring to the Tesla facility.

That's the picture that appears, but you don't see the Tesla sign.

I could not find anything on that site that acknowledged Tesla Energy exists.

 

[DaveG]

Raw materials will go in one end, run through the line, and then spit out a battery cell, ready to be installed in Tesla battery packs on the next line.

While this is technically accurate, it may be misleading to some.

To clarify, the "raw materials" are actually highly refined and purified. It's not they take in raw Lithium ore. That means there's another factory somewhere that takes in the raw Lithium ore and then refines and purifies it. And Lithium is just one of the many raw materials needed to produce batteries. So there are many other factories that are processing the different types of raw ores into various highly refined and purified materials coming into the GigaFactory.

My point is that these factories that make these highly refined and purified materials can also be scaled up Giga size for optimizing costs. Many people think the prices of the "raw" materials are somewhat fixed. They're not. Most of the cost of the "raw" materials comes from refining and purifying, and the factories that do this can also be cost-optimized, provided there's enough demand to do so.

 

[Steverino]

That's the picture that appears, but you don't see the Tesla sign.

I could not find anything on that site that acknowledged Tesla Energy exists.

Where in the US is the Panasonic gigafactory located? I could not find it.

 

[Ladogaboy]

While this is technically accurate, it may be misleading to some.

To clarify, the "raw materials" are actually highly refined and purified. It's not they take in raw Lithium ore. That means there's another factory somewhere that takes in the raw Lithium ore and then refines and purifies it. And Lithium is just one of the many raw materials needed to produce batteries. So there are many other factories that are processing the different types of raw ores into various highly refined and purified materials coming into the GigaFactory.

My point is that these factories that make these highly refined and purified materials can also be scaled up Giga size for optimizing costs. Many people think the prices of the "raw" materials are somewhat fixed. They're not. Most of the cost of the "raw" materials comes from refining and purifying, and the factories that do this can also be cost-optimized, provided there's enough demand to do so.

Yup. That is why my shares in Albemarle (ALB) have gone up so much in the couple of years. I believe they are one of the only lithium "finishing" companies in North America.

 

[James]

No Trouble With Tesla and Panasonic

You are mislead somehow that Panasonic has an exclusivity agreement with Tesla.

Panasonic makes it's own solar panels and has done so many years before Tesla was even a company.

Panasonic just completed a $250 billion contract to manufacture conventional silicon solar panels in Tesla's soon-to-be-completed solar panel Gigafactory in Buffalo, NY. They are conducting job fairs and will hire 250-300 to work there, it's all over the news. Tesla will also build it's solar roofing tiles inside that factory - production projected to begin sometime this year.

Panasonic has been in the auto battery business long before Tesla was a company. My 2007 Prius has a NIMH battery inside built by Panasonic. They have a very unique relationship with Tesla as they own the battery business inside the Sparks, Nevada Gigafactory 1 and Panasonic equipment and employees build 2170 cells that go into Tesla's Powerpacks, commercial energy storage units and Model 3 battery packs shipped to Fremont, California to go into the cars.


This "marriage" isn't in any trouble at all. In fact, it's still in the honeymoon state, so to speak. The video you linked to says nothing about a new Gigafactory that Panasonic may be building. Panasonic has converted an electronics battery plant in Dalia, China into an automotive battery plant to provide NiMH and lithium ion battery products to the Chinese auto industry. This in no way means they are changing or having any issue with their relationship with Tesla which is another issue altogether.

Strange how you see those links you offered as "news" that there is trouble in that relationship...

 

[DonC]

I'd be very surprised if there is a Panasonic-Tesla rupture. They need each other. Tesla needs Panasonic as a supplier, and Panasonic is not going to make batteries for other car companies given that interest is small format batteries by car manufacturers other than Tesla is more or less nil.

 

[Qinsp]

...
Strange how you see those links you offered as "news" that there is trouble in that relationship...

Look at dates.

When did Tesla buy Solar City?

When did Panasonic Solar set up US operation as a Solar company, not a component supplier?

When did Nissan and Sony bail on Li operations?

Tesla has mentioned Panasonic. Why does Panasonic now refrain from linking themselves publically with Tesla?

Guess? Tesla tried to play hardball with Panasonic for lower per car costs for batteries. Panasonic held firm and is preparing to find other buyers for their cells. Ditto for Solar Panels. Most Japanese companies are well-run, and lean to the conservative side.

We will see. This is a new marketing program by Panasonic. Most people do not know Panasonic and Tesla work together. Go ask 10 random people.

If I were Panasonic, I could see a lot of potential for a first strike now that Tesla is more and more interested in China, the #1 producer of both Lithium Batteries and Solar Panels. It is possible that Tesla is moving towards throwing Panasonic under the bus like they were just another senior manager.

 

[Upper5Percent]

Look at dates.

When did Tesla buy Solar City?

When did Panasonic Solar set up US operation as a Solar company, not a component supplier?

When did Nissan and Sony bail on Li operations?

Tesla has mentioned Panasonic. Why does Panasonic now refrain from linking themselves publically with Tesla?

Guess? Tesla tried to play hardball with Panasonic for lower per car costs for batteries. Panasonic held firm and is preparing to find other buyers for their cells. Ditto for Solar Panels. Most Japanese companies are well-run, and lean to the conservative side.

We will see. This is a new marketing program by Panasonic. Most people do not know Panasonic and Tesla work together. Go ask 10 random people.

If I were Panasonic, I could see a lot of potential for a first strike now that Tesla is more and more interested in China, the #1 producer of both Lithium Batteries and Solar Panels. It is possible that Tesla is moving towards throwing Panasonic under the bus like they were just another senior manager.

You mean bailed Solar City out before it declared bankruptcy...

 

[Mister Dave]

I'd be very surprised if there is a Panasonic-Tesla rupture. They need each other. Tesla needs Panasonic as a supplier, and Panasonic is not going to make batteries for other car companies given that interest is small format batteries by car manufacturers other than Tesla is more or less nil.

I see Panasonic pretty much taking over the lion's share of the Solar City operations in Buffalo. Solar City/Tesla is not able to keep the promises they made to bring in jobs in the New York deal. Panasonic will make the solar panels (and arguably has better tech for that) while Tesla is now shifted to assembling solar roof tiles only from Panasonic solar cells. Clearly Panasonic is doing a much more aggressive hiring campaign in New York.

If I were Kazuhiro Tsuga, I'd be planning out right now for how I'm going to gobble up Solar City (if there's anything left of it) and the gigafactory. For now having the Tesla name on it might be helpful PR, but things can change and Tesla's financials have never looked very good.

 

[rmay635703]

Meanwhile in the real world the fully mature 30 year old batteries Tesla has perfected are being eclipsed in density by newer chemistries.

What will win?

Energy density or cost? Or maybe both?

 

[Ladogaboy]

Meanwhile in the real world the fully mature 30 year old batteries Tesla has perfected are being eclipsed in density by newer chemistries.

What will win?

Energy density or cost? Or maybe both?

Right now, I think every other automaker is busy grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory. They've basically pulled a tortoise versus hare part two, and they've learned none of the lessons. Tesla was behind the times with induction motors and cylindrical cells. They leveraged that older technology well, and still no one passed them up. Now, they're dropping the induction motors for PMAC, which makes catching them even harder.

It is only a matter of time before Tesla transitions to prismatic cells. Right now, 100 kWh is the most they can fit in a Model S with the 18650 cells. If they transition the Model S to the 21700 cells, they might be able to up that to 120-130 kWh. If they start producing prismatic cells, they might be able to up the pack density to the point that they can fit upwards of 150 kWh. And if solid state lithium batteries turns out to be a real thing, who knows? But is Toyota really going to be able to leverage that technology better than Tesla? At this point, it seems doubtful.

 

[Mister Dave]

If they transition the Model S to the 2170 cells,......

Fixed that for you. My understanding was that Panasonic is making the cells and handing them off to Tesla so they can assemble their packs.

Similar to how Panasonic will make the PV cells in Buffalo and hand some of them off to Tesla to assemble roof tiles (while Panasonic assembles discreet solar panels).

The first of Tesla’s new cells, manufactured with Panasonic at its Nevada Gigafactory, are now under production for the company’s energy storage products.
.......
Tesla tailored the 2170 cell to deliver higher energy density through an automated manufacturing process it designed with Panasonic to save costs.

I love how the word "with" is used so liberally.