GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,289 Posts
Discussion Starter #1

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Most of the Model 3 buyers are already planning on not getting the tax credit. Removal of the credit would hurt cars like the Bolt EV, Leaf, and other cars where the tax credit are essentially priced into the vehicle anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,359 Posts
I suspect that GM and all will "ride out" the tax credit while it lasts and then the car price is gonna drop.
Any other plan shows a total lack of business acumen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
I'm all for a pragmatic view. This is not such. It's a mass of crap.

Lawrence Ulrich said:
Make no mistake: This isn’t about schadenfreude.
If you say so, but you really should do something about those hemorrhoids you're sitting on. While you're at it do some reading.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2017/11/15/how-gm-plans-to-bury-tesla-with-onslaught-of-electric-vehicles-that-will-gasp-make-a-profit/#1ac4ab0a2341

It may be overly optimistic, but Mary has a plan. I expect her to be at least partially successful. If she had Lawrence's perspective..... well.....

I suspect that GM and all will "ride out" the tax credit while it lasts and then the car price is gonna drop.
Any other plan shows a total lack of business acumen.
The Volt price dropped $5K in 2014 (YAY for me!). Tax credits had nothing to do with it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
No doubt losing the $7500 credit will matter. However, that's not necessarily the end of the ballgame. CARB could more than make up for the expiration of the federal credits by increasing the ZEV mandate and increasing the fine for not complying, a regulator change that would significantly increase the value of ZEV credits earned when selling a BEV. Problem solved! Or it could do that AND increase the rebate. It has the money from fines on gross polluters to do that as well.

Having said that, I've never bought into the Model 3 reservations as being solid. Tesla hyped the Model 3 as being a Model S for $35K and a lot of people got caught up in the hype and signed up. When all is said and done I think the Model 3 will be far less than the Model S for more like $50K. Lots of prospective buyers will balk at this, and there aren't all that many buyers at the $50K price point. Plus you always have the fall off in reservations. Look at the Nissan Leaf.

I think GM has a plan and never counted on the federal tax credits. For it, BEVs are just the cost of doing business in China, the EU, and CARB states (which means North America). It has known for years that it will have to make and sell ZEV vehicles sans the US federal tax credit, and has been relentlessly focused on cutting costs in order to sell reasonable numbers of ZEV vehicles without direct subsidies. I don't have the same faith in Tesla. It spent too much time and energy which should have been devoted to taking costs out of Model 3 to bringing out the Model X and now finds itself struggling to get the Model 3 into production. The money it may be able to raise. The lost time is just lost.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,680 Posts
I'm not buying it. In all the comparisons for the model 3 I've seen, I have yet to see one that compared it as a $27,500 car. Undoubtedly folks who don't get the credit will be disappointed to miss it, but dollar for dollar and feature for feature, the 3 competes well with the premium compact market (BMW 3 series and Audi A4) without looking at the tax credit or TCO advantages. I'm sure Tesla will find plenty of buyers, if they can just build the things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Having said that, I've never bought into the Model 3 reservations as being solid. Tesla hyped the Model 3 as being a Model S for $35K and a lot of people got caught up in the hype and signed up. When all is said and done I think the Model 3 will be far less than the Model S for more like $50K. Lots of prospective buyers will balk at this, and there aren't all that many buyers at the $50K price point. Plus you always have the fall off in reservations. Look at the Nissan Leaf.
Elon stated outright earlier this year that the Model 3 was not a replacement for the Model S. It didn't hurt their reservations at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,642 Posts
Elon stated outright earlier this year that the Model 3 was not a replacement for the Model S. It didn't hurt their reservations at all.
You speak in absolutes...I know a guy who owns two Ses, an X, and has two 3s reserved. If the 3 didn’t exist, there would be two more S or X sales. Two heavily loaded luxury vehicles does have an impact on the bottom line.

There’s also a leaf in the garage that was going to be replaced by a 3. Wouldn’t you love to be one of his kids?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,198 Posts
I'm all for a pragmatic view. This is not such. It's a mass of crap.


If you say so, but you really should do something about those hemorrhoids you're sitting on. While you're at it do some reading.



It may be overly optimistic, but Mary has a plan. I expect her to be at least partially successful. If she had Lawrence's perspective..... well.....



The Volt price dropped $5K in 2014 (YAY for me!). Tax credits had nothing to do with it.
I always enjoy your posts Mr., even if we don't see eye-to eye on everything (climate change, tax credits, Solemn Oath beer for example). Thanks for contributing. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,410 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,198 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
I always enjoy your posts Mr., even if we don't see eye-to eye on everything (climate change, tax credits, Solemn Oath beer for example). Thanks for contributing. :)
Thanks, I appreciate that. And you know I don't drink, so...... sorry. Too bad though, after a few beers I might change your mind on climate. Tax cuts/credits I'm not sure about myself. ;)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
Elon stated outright earlier this year that the Model 3 was not a replacement for the Model S. It didn't hurt their reservations at all.
No point in arguing. Time will tell. However, I believe that particular Musk quote was designed to disabuse people of the notion that the Model 3 was the latest and greatest iteration of a Tesla. Not the iPhone X versus the iPhone 8 versus the iPhone 6. My point is that the Model 3 looks like the Model S and the reveal suggested it would have the same performance. That pitch was successful. Too successful. Tesla has been trying to talk potential customers out of waiting for a Model 3 and into buying a Model S ever since. LOL

My concern about the sales of the Model 3, and all BEVs for that matter, is that they're expensive, and there isn't a huge market for expensive cars. The Model 3 is presumably aimed at the BMW 3 series but will likely be priced more like the lower end of the 5 Series. Even if the Model 3 displaced every single Series 3 and Series 5, which is improbable to say the least, that would only be 150K units. Put another way, if you plan on selling X number of million dollar homes, no matter how nice the home you still need to find X number of families able to afford it. And speaking of houses, that's another issue. You need infrastructure for an EV, and the best case is a house. So now you need a certain income level and a certain housing situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,764 Posts
The TM3 was designed, in part, to target the BMW 3 series sedan. To protect their base BMW can today sell their customers the 330e and 530e PIHV. The 530e PIHV and 530i gas vehicles are already similarly priced. Maybe BMW will decide to price the 330e the same of the gas 330i. This will give BMW customers a taste of electrification until fully electric BMW 3 or 5 series cars are available.

BMW sold over 9,400 PIHV in October 2017: https://insideevs.com/bmw-sold-over-9400-plug-ins-in-october-up-60/

BMW 530i or 530e, which to buy?: http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/01/14/bmw-530i-vs-bmw-530e-buy/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
I may be lucky to get the $1875 level of tax credit by the time I'm in the market for a Model 3... gotta get some use out of my 2017 Volt after all.

Tax credit, or no tax credit I'm buying one. I'm just not in a rush, and not the type to line up and wait. Let the 1st year production get all the kinks worked out, Tesla finds their groove with the Model 3, and around 2019 I'll be looking to buy. I think it's hilarious watching all the articles, and all the people freaking out about the small delays here and there. At the core of it all, it's a pure luxury good, nobody is going to die if they don't get their Model 3 by December, I'd rather suffer a 3 month setback and know it was done right than have a rushed product.

I like the fact I can go super basic and get a 35k car, or option it up to 70+ I'm sure by the time AWD and all the bells and whistles are on it. We all own volts, and that's nice. GM isn't some white knight in the EV world, I had a pretty ****ty time buying one thanks to their reps, not to mention more than one time the car has died and left me stranded.

The car is great when it works, but I'm very much looking forward to moving to *not* having to deal with a dealership. I won't have skin in the Tesla game for probably 1.5 more years. Plenty of time to see how the process matures.

If GM would get their **** together and release a sexy EV such as the Jolt concept that was done by someone... they might have my attention again. http://www.chevyjoltev.com/ But if how they handle business with my Volt is any indication... yeah probably not.

Bolt has a great powertrain/battery system but as a single guy no wife no kids, I refuse to buy something that frumpy looking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,642 Posts
The TM3 was designed, in part, to target the BMW 3 series sedan. To protect their base BMW can today sell their customers the 330e and 530e PIHV. The 530e PIHV and 530i gas vehicles are already similarly priced. Maybe BMW will decide to price the 330e the same of the gas 330i. This will give BMW customers a taste of electrification until fully electric BMW 3 or 5 series cars are available.

BMW sold over 9,400 PIHV in October 2017: https://insideevs.com/bmw-sold-over-9400-plug-ins-in-october-up-60/

BMW 530i or 530e, which to buy?: http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/01/14/bmw-530i-vs-bmw-530e-buy/
There's a 530e that shares a parking lot and charging station that I use (along with a model X, a PiP, and a couple Volts). Since I'm usually at work first, I park in a neighboring spot not labelled for electric cars only were the cord reaches so an EV can be next and I can plug them in. With the Model X, he just leaves his charge door open, and I move the plug when I'm done around lunch time. Alas, the 530e charge door is locked and the owner claims the charge port will not allow you to plug anything in even if he leaves the door open as it's lock mechanism locks when the car doors are locked. I've got to wonder whether he's mistaken. Why in the world would BMW be so concerned about a charge port? I can understand a locking gas cap to keep people from stealing gas. But to prevent a plug?

OK, I'm really going dark now (3rd time's a charm)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
Yes, I see it now. :rolleyes:
Ouch. A better comparison might be to the interior of the i3, which is more spartan.

BMW gave up trying to do stand alone "i" cars and went with putting hybrid powertrains in its existing line. It has worked better. When looking at the hybrid sales number, the number is for world wide sales and can't be projected for twelve months. Maybe 75K out of 2.5M total?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
Ouch. A better comparison might be to the interior of the i3, which is more spartan.
Not that spartan, and my stomach can only take so much queasiness.

I actually like the model 3 minimalism - from an artistic POV. From a practical one, not so much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,764 Posts
Ouch. A better comparison might be to the interior of the i3, which is more spartan.

BMW gave up trying to do stand alone "i" cars and went with putting hybrid powertrains in its existing line. It has worked better. When looking at the hybrid sales number, the number is for world wide sales and can't be projected for twelve months. Maybe 75K out of 2.5M total?
I believe that BMW has set a goal for 2017 of 100,000 units PIHV/EV worldwide sales. They may still reach their stated goal.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top