GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,278 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
So if you skip to the 22:00 mark, he states that he doesn't feel like the Bolt EV's motor is the best way of attaching things.

Cool. I'll defer to the judgment of the people who have to build and service these vehicles. The fact that he thinks the Bolt EV is just a "Spark with the bottom torn out" and "someone else's battery pack and motor" shoved in makes me question his opinions.

I am curious who the two customers were who paid him to tear down the Bolt EV. I'm guessing one was Hyundai. Maybe VW is the other?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
I'd rather have a separate mount so when it wears out you can just replace the mount and not the whole motor. Just seems a better way of doing things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
347 Posts
I heard a GM engineer say they expect the electric motor in the Bolt to be the small block of EVs. He's referring to the Chevy 265 cu in V8 first introduced in 1955. This is the forerunner of all the V8s used today by GM (and still holding their own against the competition). I expect variations of the Bolt motor to be in many, if not all of the upcoming EVs. By designing a motor for multiple vehicles you trade off design and manufacturing costs against weight and cost. I was however very impressed by the magnet design (opposing magnets bonded together) used by Tesla leading to its greater power output and efficiency. Think they call it Permanent Magnet Switched Reluctance Motor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,675 Posts

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,680 Posts
Example of Tesla engineering and design Drive Motor $ and weight via:
2-Jan-2018 Sandy Munro is BACK! - AAH #447 LIVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=aVnRQRdePp4

It gets more interesting when you consider they all have different outputs. The i3 peaks at only 170 HP, making it the heaviest and most expensive per unit power. The Bolt's 200 horsepower is still well short of the 3's 258 (or more, according to some dynos.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
974 Posts
It gets more interesting when you consider they all have different outputs. The i3 peaks at only 170 HP, making it the heaviest and most expensive per unit power. The Bolt's 200 horsepower is still well short of the 3's 258 (or more, according to some dynos.)
Motors with more horsepower are typically more expensive and typically heavier.
Convert this to dollars per horsepower and then weight per horsepower and see how it things compare.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,680 Posts
Motors with more horsepower are typically more expensive and typically heavier.
Convert this to dollars per horsepower and then weight per horsepower and see how it things compare.
That was kinda my point, though I didn't actually do the math for people after assembling the numbers.

From the screen cap and the three outputs from the web mentioned earlier:

BMW i3 $4.95/hp, 285g/hp

Bolt $4.18/hp, 257 g/hp

Tesla 3 $2.92/hp, 179 g/hp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
That was kinda my point, though I didn't actually do the math for people after assembling the numbers.

From the screen cap and the three outputs from the web mentioned earlier:

BMW i3 $4.95/hp, 285g/hp

Bolt $4.18/hp, 257 g/hp

Tesla 3 $2.92/hp, 179 g/hp.
Looks like Tesla has the bull by the horns but you know it's not the be all and end all, much more research to be done and spent, motors (along with batteries) will continue to get cheaper, lighter, be more powerful. Each leap frogging over the others.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,239 Posts
Thirty seconds in and I put this in the BS category. A Bolt is a Spark with the bottom ripped out? LOL.
If I'm going to spend time watching videos I'll take Prof. Kelly
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,278 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Thirty seconds in and I put this in the BS category. A Bolt is a Spark with the bottom ripped out? LOL.
If I'm going to spend time watching videos I'll take Prof. Kelly
They are well respected. Do some research. They do a lot of engineering work for decades. They video above actually started 6ish minutes in.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,278 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The motors design, weight, HP, and price are pretty impressive. Looks like it even continues to these other components and design decisions.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Yah, but there you are talking apples and oranges (not to say dealers don't have lots of padding to pay the girl's salary that run the joint.)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,278 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Aside: Tesla Model 3 config opened up in China in the past couple days and Europe several days before. Feb will be interesting to read about the deliveries and experiences.

Title: Munro Eats Crow, Finds Tesla Model 3 To Be Highly Profitable -- JUL 16 2018
https://insideevs.com/munro-tesla-model-3-profitable/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,230 Posts
Cool. I'll defer to the judgment of the people who have to build and service these vehicles. The fact that he thinks the Bolt EV is just a "Spark with the bottom torn out" and "someone else's battery pack and motor" shoved in makes me question his opinions.
?
Well don't do a side by side of a Spark and Bolt, the lines are near identical. I don't see the offense, GM like all legacy makers builds many vehicles of one chassis with some modification. I never knew that there was a question what the Bolt was based off of, from day one I thought it was a Spark, but one where from the outset the whole package was based on only being an EV
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,181 Posts
Is it based off the Spark? I thought it was based off the Sonic, isn't the Bolt built on the same production line?
Well don't do a side by side of a Spark and Bolt, the lines are near identical. I don't see the offense, GM like all legacy makers builds many vehicles of one chassis with some modification. I never knew that there was a question what the Bolt was based off of, from day one I thought it was a Spark, but one where from the outset the whole package was based on only being an EV
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,181 Posts
Are they estimating Feb delivery? How long does it take to get a vehicle from Fremont to the entry port in Belgium? 2 weeks at a minimum, no? I recall my BMW took 10 days from Belgium to New Jersey. Surely going thru the Panama Canal is going to add another week. If they can start delivery by Feb, that'd be pretty amazing.
Aside: Tesla Model 3 config opened up in China in the past couple days and Europe several days before. Feb will be interesting to read about the deliveries and experiences.

Title: Munro Eats Crow, Finds Tesla Model 3 To Be Highly Profitable -- JUL 16 2018
https://insideevs.com/munro-tesla-model-3-profitable/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,230 Posts
I think the interesting comment in the video about GM was from Munro and it explains the age old question many us have asked, why aren't there more vehicles on the Volt platform and having the Bolt why hasn't there been a slew of other vehicles on it already.

1) silos. there is little cross cooperation among the various teams required to design a car. This was brought to light with the Tesla super bottle. Not only is there lack of cooperation it seems there is no desire to give any

2) expertise in battery tech and electric drive train integration. how is that possible? they had the EV1 decades ago, two generation of Volts, and now the Bolt. They seem to have allowed all of this to be kept by their supplier. So when it comes to spinning up a new model it requires too much supplier input to pivot quickly.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,278 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Are they estimating Feb delivery? How long does it take to get a vehicle from Fremont to the entry port in Belgium? 2 weeks at a minimum, no? I recall my BMW took 10 days from Belgium to New Jersey. Surely going thru the Panama Canal is going to add another week. If they can start delivery by Feb, that'd be pretty amazing.
Earnings call info:

Tesla switches Model 3 production to European version, first Chinese Model 3 spotted
Fred Lambert - Jan. 2nd 2019 7:32 pm ET
https://electrek.co/2019/01/02/tesla-model-3-production-european-chinese-version/

During the latest earnings call, Tesla CEO Elon Musk commented about the timeline of the release of the Model 3 on the old continent.

He said then that Tesla planned to open the order book to reservation holders by the end of the year, which is currently happening.

Musk added that they plan to build a significant batch of Model 3 vehicles for Europe in January and he expects deliveries in February and March:
“We expect to start producing a significant volume for Europe in January, and obviously take some time to ship. So deliveries, probably if we finish the deliveries in Europe kind of in the late February, March timeframe.”
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Thirty seconds in and I put this in the BS category. A Bolt is a Spark with the bottom ripped out? LOL.
If I'm going to spend time watching videos I'll take Prof. Kelly
I think the interesting comment in the video about GM was from Munro and it explains the age old question many us have asked, why aren't there more vehicles on the Volt platform and having the Bolt why hasn't there been a slew of other vehicles on it already.

1) silos. there is little cross cooperation among the various teams required to design a car. This was brought to light with the Tesla super bottle. Not only is there lack of cooperation it seems there is no desire to give any

2) expertise in battery tech and electric drive train integration. how is that possible? they had the EV1 decades ago, two generation of Volts, and now the Bolt. They seem to have allowed all of this to be kept by their supplier. So when it comes to spinning up a new model it requires too much supplier input to pivot quickly.
Based on his comments, he seems to have a major bias against the older American automakers. I'm not sure it's a coincidence that it seems directed specifically at Chrysler and GM (he, apparently, used to work at both). I wonder if anyone knows the circumstances behind why he no longer works for them?

Either way, to Shivety's #2 point, I think that's where Munro is basically full of crap. It's clearly a biased assumption that he is making. On one hand, he states that it is the culture and organization stifling innovation (the more likely reason), but then, in almost the same breath, he says that it is because they lack expertise and talent (clearly not the case based on GM's ability to design the Volt -- one of the major engineering feats of this century). Also, Mary Barra's emphasis on restructuring GM is something of a nod to the former assertion that it is actually culture and silos that are impeding progress, not a lack of talent.

After watching most of this segment, I'm of the opinion that Munro's quantitative data is worth considering, but his qualitative assertions can be ignored.
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top