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And least they have offered free supercharging....what did GM offer? Oh wait...they charge extra for DCFC charging and don't even offer fast charging except on their Bolt...
except SAE....even though ChaDemo and Supercharging are more prevalent and available. .....
Yes, Tesla used to offer 'free supercharging' back when they never made a profit.
Oh wait... they have never made a profit.
Now they have to charge for every little thing they can to someday hopefully make a profit.

BTW, my Spark EV has the $750 DCFC option. A much less expensive option than what Teslas now sells.

And as for SAE Standards. Get used to it. It's the future.
Chademo and Tesla are their own little proprietary clubs. They will soon be the outsiders.
Or,, Tesla can start selling Tesla-to-CCS adapters and start selling electrons to other EV's,, and maybe someday make a profit.
Wasn't there talk of 'Sharing patents' and such?:confused:
 

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Right!!
Another shrewd business model !
Like giving away free power for life through the Super Charger network.... (They rolled that back too...)
They haven't rolled it back - it still applies to every car sold with that promise, and they announced the change well before it happened to give everyone time.

They have ceased to offer that on cars they sell now, because folks were abusing it. Companies like Tesloop built their entire business model off of Tesla buying all their electricity for them while they drive hundreds of thousands of miles per year per car.
 

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The first Teslas had no DCFC ability. When they finally added it, it was $2000/2500 at first. Some EV makers charge $1700 for the higher capacity 7.7kW AC onboard.
Not exactly. Every Model S ever built had the capability to Supercharge. Every 85 kWh car had it included for free once they announced the network (including cars already delivered to customers prior to that time.)

60 kWh cars were offered an option for $2k or after delivery $2500 as you say, and the few 40 kWh cars they sold were told they had to upgrade to 60 kWh first, then pay for the option.

When the 60 was replaced with a 70 kWh pack after a couple years, Tesla switched to make it free for all cars from then on, including the new 60 that came later.
 

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They haven't rolled it back - it still applies to every car sold with that promise,...

They have ceased to offer that on cars they sell now, because folks were abusing it. ....
That's the roll back I meant.
Some 'Tesla folks' were using it as they saw fit. Like apartment dwellers. There was no fine print for "Free for Life."

Maybe they 'ceased to offer' it because you can't make any money giving it away forever. A kid could have told them that!
 

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Not exactly. Every Model S ever built had the capability to Supercharge. Every 85 kWh car had it included for free once they announced the network (including cars already delivered to customers prior to that time.)

60 kWh cars were offered an option for $2k or after delivery $2500 as you say, and the few 40 kWh cars they sold were told they had to upgrade to 60 kWh first, then pay for the option.

When the 60 was replaced with a 70 kWh pack after a couple years, Tesla switched to make it free for all cars from then on, including the new 60 that came later.
First were Roadsters.

The harsh criticism was that in Year One of the Bolt, with mostly a coastal only DCFC system, that Chevy lists DCFC as optional for $750.

If you went down the list of Year One EVs and the EVs selling today, Chevy is middle of the pack, not WORST COMPANY EVAR!!!

Tesla has the best remote charging system of any EV brand today by a wide margin. But Chevrolet is not the sole producer of cars with worse DCFC support than Tesla. Even Nissan is a bit questionable and still cannot cross the flyover states yet and they have been at it nearly as long as Tesla.

The two larger auto companies than GM, VW and Toyota, have far, far worse DCFC and range support.

The Volkswagen E-Golf costs $1,675 for DCFC support. Sort of puts it's short range and $30k price tag in perspective.
 

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The first Teslas had no DCFC ability. When they finally added it, it was $2000/2500 at first. Some EV makers charge $1700 for the higher capacity 7.7kW AC onboard.

Chevrolet in late 2010, sold their pragmatic solution for a 'go anywhere' EV under the Volt name. By putting a powerful generator on board, over 80% of commuters could drive back and forth on pure electricity, but also drive anywhere in America.

Chevrolet still sells a Go Anywhere EV that now covers 96% of commuters on EV alone, but now the generator uses less fuel when needed.

They also sell a BEV that covers close to 100% of commuters. If you desire to take long trips and love hanging out to watch a car charge, you can get an $750 option that permits you to be tortured when compared to the Volt.

I have never understood the drooling over DCFC. I would certainly order that option, but seriously, 30 Minutes Is Not Fast. It is a kludge to allow moving the car long distances at a leisurely pace. It should be called DCLS instead. "DC Less Slow".
30 minutes is plenty to get 80% of one's charge up...a damned site better than having to wait 4.5 hours to gain 60 miles .

Which Tesla's are you talking about? The S60- when it came out had the $2000 supercharging option. But the charging itself has always been free. Always. Plus, Tesla took the risk of opening superchargers and building an infrastructure for its customers. An unheard of concept at GM. Tesla began the build out of the Superchargers in 2012 and at the end of 2016 there were almost 5000 chargers globally with around 770 stations.

You seem to continue to keep making excuses for GM's lack of vision and investment into EVs until they were pushed to do so.

And thanks to GM...I'll reiterate....a more global charging standard was gutted through their lobbying to keep SAE and slow things down here in the States. What you call a pragmatic solution was what was clearly GM's way of thwarting others from adopting a better charging system than SAE here in the States. It seems everything GM does goes against what true EV models are based on...electricity, fast charging, and an infrastructure that has been growing at a rate too fast for GM's tastes.

Who cares what the Volt can do...it has a regular fuel tank and a full size ICE engine for crying out loud...so relax with the "EV" accolades for a Volt...we're talking about EVs aren't we after all? Compare apples to apples for change.

It's very likely that Tesla's decision to make a proprietary charging system was 2 fold...A) to offer its customers a level of charging no one else would and B) to circumvent GM's idiotic attempt to monopolize a charging standard (SAE) that most others really didn't use anywhere else but here in the States.
 

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Yes, Tesla used to offer 'free supercharging' back when they never made a profit.
Oh wait... they have never made a profit.
Now they have to charge for every little thing they can to someday hopefully make a profit.

BTW, my Spark EV has the $750 DCFC option. A much less expensive option than what Teslas now sells.

And as for SAE Standards. Get used to it. It's the future.
Chademo and Tesla are their own little proprietary clubs. They will soon be the outsiders.
Or,, Tesla can start selling Tesla-to-CCS adapters and start selling electrons to other EV's,, and maybe someday make a profit.
Wasn't there talk of 'Sharing patents' and such?:confused:
ChaDemo is far far far larger than SAE....but since GM couldn't handle the Leaf's climbing sales here in the US, they lobbied hard to push SAE instead.

Funny about the profits of Tesla...somehow now it's bigger than GM....that must hurt a bit.
 

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Yes, Tesla used to offer 'free supercharging' back when they never made a profit.
Oh wait... they have never made a profit.
Now they have to charge for every little thing they can to someday hopefully make a profit.

BTW, my Spark EV has the $750 DCFC option. A much less expensive option than what Teslas now sells.

And as for SAE Standards. Get used to it. It's the future.
Chademo and Tesla are their own little proprietary clubs. They will soon be the outsiders.
Or,, Tesla can start selling Tesla-to-CCS adapters and start selling electrons to other EV's,, and maybe someday make a profit.
Wasn't there talk of 'Sharing patents' and such?:confused:
It does suck that they only made a profit on a couple quarter so not quite never. It also sucks that they are reinvesting the PROFITS of around 20% on each vehicle sold producing the largest factory in the world that will just happen to make batteries that will go into their other drain on their capital the Model 3.

I guess unlike chevy who instead of reinvesting in the electrification of a nationwide network they decided to spend 5 BILLION dollars buying back stock. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4035829-general-motors-embrace-large-stock-buybacks

Maybe if Tesla wasn't so stupid they could have shelved the gigafactory and not spent Billions getting the model 3 ready and instead used that money to reward shareholder hoping to make their stock price go up...Oh wait they did the opposite and reinvested in the company and Tesla stock skyrocketed to GM valuation.

Basically when the only barb you have to throw that they aren't making money on 20% margins because they are reinvesting every dime plus a lot to get two factories ready to produce a car that will actually move electrification into the mainstream or at least outsell every other EV that has ever been made to date.

Talk to me in about a year and we can then see what PROFIT Tesla has made.

BTW Tesla did release all of its patents so people could make the same charging standards as Tesla which would have made it easier to connect to their network. Just because they released the patents doesn't mean that they will let people come in and use their hardware that they built for their customers. How about GM takes those patents and builds their own superchargers? Then we can talk about sharing.
 

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I'm not sure why everyone tries to pin the CCS standard on GM. They've always defaulted to the SAE standards. It wasn't GM that pushed the SAE's CCS standard in Europe. That was VW and the European automakers. And with Hyundai and Honda both building CCS equipped vehicles, CHAdeMO's days are definitely numbered. No one ever made CHAdeMO the world-standard. They just took that mantle on their own because no one else was competing with them at the time. CHAdeMO is losing ground very quickly to CCS. The only reason it isn't more noticeable is that most places are installing both CHAdeMO and CCS on the same charger. By the time the current, planned build out is done, the difference between CHAdeMO will be low single-digit percentages.

Long term, it is also the most logical standard. I've heard people say, "CHAdeMO just requires one additional plug. It's no big deal." Actually, it is a huge deal. It limits both exterior design and internal engineering. People, rightly, point to the Tesla standard as better because of how slim and elegant it is. The CCS standard isn't as slim and elegant, but compared to CHAdeMO--where you feel like you're docking to the International Space Station--it is very convenient and straightforward.
 

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Yes, Tesla used to offer 'free supercharging' back when they never made a profit.
Oh wait... they have never made a profit.
Now they have to charge for every little thing they can to someday hopefully make a profit.

BTW, my Spark EV has the $750 DCFC option. A much less expensive option than what Teslas now sells.

And as for SAE Standards. Get used to it. It's the future.
Chademo and Tesla are their own little proprietary clubs. They will soon be the outsiders.
Or,, Tesla can start selling Tesla-to-CCS adapters and start selling electrons to other EV's,, and maybe someday make a profit.
Wasn't there talk of 'Sharing patents' and such?
ChaDemo is far far far larger than SAE....but since GM couldn't handle the Leaf's climbing sales here in the US, they lobbied hard to push SAE instead.

Funny about the profits of Tesla...somehow now it's bigger than GM....that must hurt a bit.
BMW, VW, Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai and Kia also have adopted CCS. I guess they joined GM's lobbying efforts to supposedly kill the other standards? CHAdeMO is basically a Japanese standard. Even Kia only put CHAdeMO in the Soul EV only because it was what was available at the time. Kia has announced that it is moving to CCS. They want to help GM kill the other standards, right? Lol

RE: stock valuation, I remember a lot of tech stocks in the early 2000s that were valued way higher than their more conventional competitors. What happened to tons of those companies? Hmm

If you had to invest your life savings right now for 90 days, whose stock would you buy? GM or Tesla?
 

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Fact: Tesla has never had a profitable year (not even close) and only 2 profitable quarters in its history. And even then, those quarters were only profitable because Tesla cooked the books with creative accounting. They have shown 0 capacity to make any kind of real profit, and if the Model 3 launch doesn't go to plan, it may very well sink the company.

We already see Elon doing everything possible to stick to his launch deadline, such as no AWD/Performance versions at launch, cookie cutter inventory instead of custom orders at first. He's doing whatever it takes to keep that TSLA stock value inflated. That's the #1 priority for him, not the customers.
 

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Fact: Tesla has never had a profitable year (not even close) and only 2 profitable quarters in its history. And even then, those quarters were only profitable because Tesla cooked the booked with creative accounting. They have shown 0 capacity to make any kind of real profit, and if the Model 3 launch doesn't go to plan, it may very well sink the company.

We already see Elon doing everything possible to stick to his launch deadline, such as no AWD/Performance versions at launch, cookie cutter inventory instead of custom orders at first. He's doing whatever it takes to keep that TSLA stock value inflated. That's the #1 priority for him, not the customers.
I honestly think that Elon doesn't really care about making a profit, he cares more about positively affecting the world through the electrification of vehicles, through making solar affordable and recusing our dependence of coal and natural gas power plants, and finding new places to go in space if and when we destroy our planet. Profit is only N important stepping stone to being able to afford to continue these projects, not to pad his already wealthy wallet.
 

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I honestly think that Elon doesn't really care about making a profit, he cares more about positively affecting the world through the electrification of vehicles, through making solar affordable and recusing our dependence of coal and natural gas power plants, and finding new places to go in space if and when we destroy our planet. Profit is only N important stepping stone to being able to afford to continue these projects, not to pad his already wealthy wallet.
Unfortunately many stock holders don't really care about any of the above. And since TSLA is a publicly traded company, guess who Elon has to answer to in the end? It ain't the greenie save the world types. It's the greenie "where's the $$$$???" types. Tesla NEEDS to start showing investors the money in the form of consistent profitable quarters with the release of the Model 3, or else they will ditch TSLA for the next hot stock.
 

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You know what, let's do a "for fun" stock investment and check the results in 90 days.

$1 million in monopoly investment monies:
TSLA - $305.52 = 3,273 shares
GM - $33.79 = 29,594 shares

Let's check back on July 20th and compare.
 

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Throw Ford in there... $11.47 a share - 87,184 shares...
Put me in for LQMT (Liquidmetal Technologies) at 26 cents per share, or 3.8M shares.

As for stocks, I'm not a day trader, I'm a decade trader. It's easy to pick out stocks during dot bomb, the financial crisis, etc and hold for a decade or two. So the 90 day mark is just pure luck - you win some and you lose some, the overall market could be good or bad. That said, I've purchased Apple stock at $13 per share prior to multiple splits and Akamai Technologies at 89 cents per share. And if my middle daughter wasn't attending college at the time, I'd still be owning these stocks, but I sold when I needed the money. Buy and hold, baby, buy and hold. So I'll play this game for 90 days, but come back to me in 10 years and see if LQMT does anything significant.
 

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Funny about the profits of Tesla...somehow now it's bigger than GM....that must hurt a bit.
Market cap vs. revenue is explained here: http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/122414/what-difference-between-market-capitalization-and-revenue.asp

Tesla market cap is currently higher than GM or Ford. Tesla 2016 revenue is well below GM. Tesla's operating margin (profits to you) has been in the red every year.

Fact: Tesla has never had a profitable year (not even close) and only 2 profitable quarters in its history.
Correct.

Unfortunately many stock holders don't really care about any of the above. And since TSLA is a publicly traded company, guess who Elon has to answer to in the end? It ain't the greenie save the world types. It's the greenie "where's the $$$$???" types. Tesla NEEDS to start showing investors the money in the form of consistent profitable quarters with the release of the Model 3, or else they will ditch TSLA for the next hot stock.
Many of those investors are the Tesla faithful. The market cap would never be this high otherwise. Never underestimate the power of religion.

Put me in for LQMT (Liquidmetal Technologies) at 26 cents per share, or 3.8M shares.
I prefer more reliable stocks like JNJ. Market cap is a measly 329.16B. A magnitude of scale well above automotive stock (TSLA is only 50.14B).

Dividends are nice too. Seen any from TSLA (DIVIDEND YIELD 0.00%)?
 

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Fact: Tesla has never had a profitable year (not even close) and only 2 profitable quarters in its history. And even then, those quarters were only profitable because Tesla cooked the books with creative accounting. They have shown 0 capacity to make any kind of real profit, and if the Model 3 launch doesn't go to plan, it may very well sink the company.

We already see Elon doing everything possible to stick to his launch deadline, such as no AWD/Performance versions at launch, cookie cutter inventory instead of custom orders at first. He's doing whatever it takes to keep that TSLA stock value inflated. That's the #1 priority for him, not the customers.
Ok it has to be a whole year now. You just said it has never been profitable.

Why don't you reply to why they haven't been profitable?

Here I'll help and I will say it very slowly for you to understand.

They are building the largest factory in the world that will produce batteries for their Model S,3,X and home powerwalls at the same time spooling up their car factory to be able to produce the model 3 at a rate of 500,000 a year. Both of which require a ton of capital which is why even though they have margins on their cars that most manufactures would die for they still can't show a profit when it all goes back into the company.

Like I said someday they will be cool enough to stop investing in the future of electric cars with those stupid things like battery plants and supercharging stations and start spending that money more wisely in buying back their own stock.
 

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You know what, let's do a "for fun" stock investment and check the results in 90 days.

$1 million in monopoly investment monies:
TSLA - $305.52 = 3,273 shares
GM - $33.79 = 29,594 shares

Let's check back on July 20th and compare.
hey bro how about we go back 8 months and see how the people that invested in TSLA did? How about we go back 8 years and see how well those that invested in GM did. A little hint if you don't want to look it up...they were just about to file bankruptcy and were in the process of getting bailed out by the taxpayer.
 

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Unfortunately many stock holders don't really care about any of the above. And since TSLA is a publicly traded company, guess who Elon has to answer to in the end? It ain't the greenie save the world types. It's the greenie "where's the $$$$???" types. Tesla NEEDS to start showing investors the money in the form of consistent profitable quarters with the release of the Model 3, or else they will ditch TSLA for the next hot stock.
Thanks god we have you for this advice and not all those poor investors that are just throwing their money away on some fly by night operation based on a hot stock tip.

The fact is that it takes a lot of capital and time to do what Tesla is doing. Most investors are well aware of the timeline and even if it takes a little longer than expected most will stick with the stock for the same reason they bought it. A vision that a good looking, fast, affordable electric car will appeal to the masses and buy them in droves. Along with investing in a battery plant that will soon be responsible for more batteries produced for electric cars that have ever been produced.

Now if in the next year or two people don't buy the model 3 or y and we turn away from electric cars making the largest factory in the world that just happens to produce batteries for cars sit idle then yes TSLA will dive like a lead balloon.

Most people don't see that happening and I hope you don't either since we are on a sight that is devoted to electric cars.

On the other hand if more and more electric cars hit the market all needing batteries that Tesla can produce and the model 3 is a success then buying the stock right now would seem like a bargain.

If you don't see that happening then short the stock like so many have done and lost their shirt in the process.
 
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