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Not to turn this into a political debate, but the $7500 tax credit is in serious danger from the new tax bill, and would be eliminated for EVs purchased after 12/31/2017.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tric-cars-said-to-be-axed-in-gop-tax-proposal
House GOP Tax Bill Would End Electric-Car Tax Credits

The push by Tesla Inc., General Motors Co. and other carmakers to boost sales of electric vehicles was dealt a blow by House Republicans who on Thursday proposed eliminating a $7,500 per vehicle tax credit that has helped stoke early demand.

“That will stop any electric vehicle market in the U.S., apart from sales of the highly expensive Tesla Model S,” said Xavier Mosquet, senior partner at consultant Boston Consulting Group, who authored a study on the growth of battery powered vehicles. “There’s no Tesla 3, no Bolt, no Leaf in a market without incentives.”



https://electrek.co/2017/12/02/electric-vehicle-tax-credit-senate-bill/
Carmakers are fighting for a $7,500 electric-car credit that the GOP tax bill would kill

Adam Bink, a 33-year-old resident of Sonoma, California, ordered a Tesla Model 3 when Tesla CEO Elon Musk unveiled the electric sedan in March 2016. He's expecting to get the car next spring — a delayed delivery date because of Tesla's production struggles.

But if Congress passes House Republicans' massive tax bill as written, it won't matter whether Bink will get his car a few months late. He says he would have to cancel his order. That's because the healthcare bill, which the GOP hopes will become law as soon as Christmas, would eliminate a $7,500 tax credit for electric vehicles.
 

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Uncertainty about the tax credit continuing was one reason I bought my Bolt in August. I would not have bought my Volt in 2011 without the tax credit.

On the flip side, this may mean used Volts and Bolts will see a price increase. There are also those who contend that GM will simply drop the price by $7500.

And then there is the fact that GM and Tesla are getting close to the end of their 200,000 car tax break limit under the law. But I think GM still had about a year of sales left, and even when that 200k car sold limit is hit, the law allowed a tax credit, just smaller over time until it was completely phased out. Like dimming a light. So that would have likely lasted through 2019.
 

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It is not surprising that this is happening with a Republican congress and President. I think the best cars will survive without the tax credit. Bolt, all Teslas, and probably the Volt will still have a market.
 

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There are also those who contend that GM will simply drop the price by $7500.
I've always said this but for manufactures in general, not just GM. And I think it won't necessarily be a drop by $7500, just whatever is necessary for market adjustments; heck it could even be more.

The battery tax credit was intended to help corporations not individuals so it's somewhat ironic that those who wrote this bill are trying to axe it and smacks of political grandstanding and a jab towards the left, enviro's, etc.
 

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Local dealer is already discounting 2017 Bolt's by $5555 and that is w/o ANY $$$ from GM. So I can easily see GM being able to do that, not so sure about Tesla. This could be a good thing for GM and their efforts. It removes one of the hot talking points usually spewed by the anti-EV crowd.

Let the best manufacture/EV win.
 

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Not to turn this into a political debate, but the $7500 tax credit is in serious danger from the new tax bill, and would be eliminated for EVs purchased after 12/31/2017.
<snip>
https://electrek.co/2017/12/02/electric-vehicle-tax-credit-senate-bill/
Carmakers are fighting for a $7,500 electric-car credit that the GOP tax bill would kill
This article has been updated a couple times. Apparently it was not removed in the Senate version and Mr Flakes tried to add an amendment to have it removed but that then didn't make it on the Senate version that passed. All details in the article above.

Legislative Process: How a Senate Bill Becomes a Law
https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/legprocessflowchart.pdf
 

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There are also those who contend that GM will simply drop the price by $7500.
That may happen, but it is not quite that simple for all EV models on the market. There is already a lot of speculation that the profit margins on various of these cars is either negative or very thin. I don't want to raise that debate in this thread, and I know it depends on how the accounting is done, ZEV credits, etc. But the point is that there is only so much that a manufacturer is going to be able to do on the price lowering side before it is just not worth it to make the cars any more. I doubt all the affected models can absorb the full $7500 that way. I think there will be a combination of price reductions (or various kinds of discounting), consumers paying more, lower sales volumes and some models being dropped.

Or of course there could be some other market disruption that might offset the tax credit issue, such as ZEV credits becoming more valuable (unlikely) or a breakthrough in the cost of batteries, etc.

The repeal of the credit could actually be seen as a good thing from the perspective of the companies who would have run out earliest. This would prevent that scenario where they have to compete against other makers who have up to a $7500 price advantage due to still having unexpired credits.
 

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I have absolutely no inside information in this. However, there are two Republican senators from South Carolina where BMW assembles vehicles and two Republican senators from Tennessee where Nissan assembles its vehicles. Given the financial interest of Nissan and BMW in preserving the credit, the fact that Republicans can only afford to lose two votes, and the fact the credit isn't a big line item, I'm thinking the chances of the credit surviving are fairly high.
 

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Do you really like the idea of the American government favoring Toyota's over Chevy's? Under the current tax code the subsidy for GM cars start the phase out next year and after that GM cars will get no subsidy but Toyota, which has ignored the EV market up to now and is only entering it now because China is holding a gun to their heads, will receive subsidies for four or five more years. Killing the tax credit for everybody at once is the fairest thing to do. The tax subsidy has done it's job, a fully loaded Bolt is $39K, that's reasonably affordable, it's not Cruze affordable but it's in the same league with a loaded Silverado and it's certainly not in the BMW/Mercedes range.
 

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But the point is that there is only so much that a manufacturer is going to be able to do on the price lowering side before it is just not worth it to make the cars any more. I doubt all the affected models can absorb the full $7500 that way.
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Or of course there could be some other market disruption that might offset the tax credit issue, such as ZEV credits becoming more valuable (unlikely) or a breakthrough in the cost of batteries, etc.
I don't see this as political at all. Or if it is political it's very much on point. So no issues.

Note that it's simple to increase the value of the ZEV credits. All that CARB needs to do is raise the penalty for failing to have the requisite credits from $2500 a credit to a higher number. Done.

But something more importantis happening and it's a sea change. Initially electrification was driven by government fiat, first with CARB and then by China and last by the EU. Then GM and Nissan and doubtless other car manufacturers realized that (1) the next huge opportunity for them was autonomous vehicles; and (2) autonomous vehicles need to be electric vehicles. The carrot of autonomy is way larger than the stick of the government fiat, so anything that happens on the stick side isn't going to matter that much. IOW GM is going ahead with its EV program regardless of the tax credit, which would be gone anyway by the time it brought out its new lineup of electric vehicles.
 

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Do you really like the idea of the American government favoring Toyota's over Chevy's? Under the current tax code the subsidy for GM cars start the phase out next year and after that GM cars will get no subsidy but Toyota, which has ignored the EV market up to now and is only entering it now because China is holding a gun to their heads, will receive subsidies for four or five more years. Killing the tax credit for everybody at once is the fairest thing to do. The tax subsidy has done it's job, a fully loaded Bolt is $39K, that's reasonably affordable, it's not Cruze affordable but it's in the same league with a loaded Silverado and it's certainly not in the BMW/Mercedes range.
Yup, this is the silver lining to removing the tax credit. The tax credit helped those manufactures with the guts to develop EVs. Killing it now means the laggards won't be able to take advantage of the progress in EV technology spurred by the original risk takers and get a big cost advantage.
 

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(2) autonomous vehicles need to be electric vehicles.
I don't get this point. Why wouldn't ICE vehicles work? I get that it is safer for an EV to charge itself without human assistance, but overall, either should be possible for autonomous driving.
 

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Do you really like the idea of the American government favoring Toyota's over Chevy's? Under the current tax code the subsidy for GM cars start the phase out next year and after that GM cars will get no subsidy but Toyota, which has ignored the EV market up to now and is only entering it now because China is holding a gun to their heads, will receive subsidies for four or five more years. Killing the tax credit for everybody at once is the fairest thing to do. The tax subsidy has done it's job, a fully loaded Bolt is $39K, that's reasonably affordable, it's not Cruze affordable but it's in the same league with a loaded Silverado and it's certainly not in the BMW/Mercedes range.
As a free market guy, I wish the credit had never been put in place at all - but pulling it now seems like further government intrusion showing favoritism to GM and Tesla. Toyota, VW, Honda etc all have huge US workforces so to call them "foreign" seems myopic at best. (especially considering the amount of imported content in the Volt and Bolt as it is) If the market for PHEVs and BEVs grows here in the US, they will start building them here just like their other models.
 

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But if Congress passes House Republicans' massive tax bill as written, it won't matter whether Bink will get his car a few months late. He says he would have to cancel his order. That's because the healthcare bill, which the GOP hopes will become law as soon as Christmas, would eliminate a $7,500 tax credit for electric vehicles.[/I]
Senate can't pass House bill as written, because it adds more to the deficit than the Senate rules allow. And the House can't just pass the Senate one because the Senate one leaves a corporate Alternative Minimum Tax at exactly the same rate as the new corporate income tax, which means basically ALL large corporate deductions are moot. R&D, bad debt, insurance costs, employee expenses, NONE of it can be productively written off because doing so just bobs right back up in the AMT again. There will be a reconciliation bill....

Maybe the Senate should take a little more time to proofread what they vote on...
 

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I can't believe these GOP-tards in Congress couldn't come up with a resolution in the middle WRT the EV tax credit: kill it for everyone once the first manufacturer hits 200k. That way the early movers like GM, Tesla, Nissan, can enjoy the 200k credits (or most of them), while the ones that sat on their asses (Toyota, FCA, MB) miss out on utilizing the credits. Such a proposal would have probably garnered some support even among EV fans.
 

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Not be snarky, but if that guy cannot buy the car he wants without getting a 7500 check from Uncle Sam he cannot afford the car to begin with. **** I hate people who are so greedy they want me to pay for their lifestyle.

I think the rebate was a bad idea in the first place because it set no limit on the price of the car or income level. Rich people don't need incentives to buy cars
 

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Yup, this is the silver lining to removing the tax credit. The tax credit helped those manufactures with the guts to develop EVs. Killing it now means the laggards won't be able to take advantage of the progress in EV technology spurred by the original risk takers and get a big cost advantage.
This is exactly right. I have serious issues with keeping the tax credit in place "as is". I would much rather see it removed now, than to stay in place as is.
 

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Here's a twist on the thinking.... So how many Tesla M3 orders get cancelled if the tax credit goes away on January 1 instead of sunsetting over time? Folks with dates more than a year out may not be planning on getting the tax credit anyways, but a lot likely are. And while cancelled orders won't really affect Tesla's immediate cash flow one way or the other, (They can just move later schedule orders forward) it won't look good in headlines, to potentially new customers, or investor projections. With Tesla already burning cash at a prodigious rate and struggling in production hell, this could easily be another potentially significant bump in the road to Tesla's long term future. And I'm sure their is a flip side to be pointed out, but my glass is half empty.
 

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There is no lines of people waiting to buy a Bolt or a Volt as the price of gas in most places is well below $3/ gallon. This would be the easiest item to eliminate as it would have eliminated itself eventually based on the amount of sales. The $7,500 Fed Tax Credit was not permanent.

Here in north western Oregon, at the local Chevy dealership in Warrenton they still have 3-4 Volts on the lot and they have been there for a few months, and they are a small dealership as well. They will probably be there for a long time if the fed tax credit is eliminated as the $7,500 tax credit is still here and so are the Volts.
 

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There is no lines of people waiting to buy a Bolt or a Volt as the price of gas in most places is well below $3/ gallon. This would be the easiest item to eliminate as it would have eliminated itself eventually based on the amount of sales. The $7,500 Fed Tax Credit was not permanent.

Here in north western Oregon, at the local Chevy dealership in Warrenton they still have 3-4 Volts on the lot and they have been there for a few months, and they are a small dealership as well. They will probably be there for a long time if the fed tax credit is eliminated as the $7,500 tax credit is still here and so are the Volts.
There ARE waiting lists to buy Bolts at multiple volume Bolt dealers in the SF Bay area however. Many of those dealers actually sold out of Bolts at the end of last month, and are waiting for new shipments to come in.
 
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