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Discussion Starter #1
Is it true that the Tesla Superchargers are not true 150 kW? My understanding is each charger is paired with another charger, and they can only produce a maximum of 200 kW.

I find this a bit funny because it seems that many Tesla drivers are a bit snobby about charge rates when referring to DCFC and CHAdeMO stations. However, it seems like the stars need to align in order for a Tesla to actually exceed 50-100 kW charging in the real world.

It also occurs to me that when the planned 100 kW CCS stations are installed and available, the Bolt could see fast charging rates comparable to what many Tesla owners are currently experiencing. It makes the elitism I've seen from Tesla owners all the more puzzling.
 

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Each US-JP Supercharger cabinet is 120-135kW and can split that between two stations. It can also give 100% to one car. In the EU and China they are 135-150kW per cabinet. It is rare to pull into a Supercharger and have all cabinets occupied, forcing a share situation. The worst case (and quite rare) scenario would be two empty cars per cabinet, getting 60-75kW charging. I regularly get 120kW charging when I'm on the road.
 

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I can understand why. When the supercharging area is empty or even half full, everyone can get a higher rate of charging. If 2 vehicles are plugged into the same feed, they will share until one car is full, then the other gets the higher charge rate.

I know a guy I on the west coast that built his own box where you plug a j1772 into it, and it has two J1772s that allow two cars to share a single public charging station. If the circuit can handle 30A, and you have 2 volts, both get the full rate that the volts can handle. If you plug in a PiP and a Tesla, the PiP and Tesla would share for the few moments that the PiP needs to top off, then the Tesla would get the a higher amberage charge for the remainder of the session. But I could see the Charging station owner freaking out a bit when there is a home made contraption plugged into your EVSE.
 

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I put this in the "it's never exactly true" category but it's not worth worrying about. So many things are rated for their maximum under ideal conditions that rarely occur. To use an example from an entirely different area, cameras will be rated at a frames per second shooting speed but an actual photographer using the camera will never see these speeds. There are just a lot of variables. Same type of thing with hard disks or memory cards -- the rated speeds are rarely if ever seen in practice.

Moreover, the actual speed is likely more determined by the size of the pack than by the charger.

I don't think it's any surprise that you see "elitism" from Tesla owners. They've bought a Veblen vehicle! What do you expect. LOL

The worst case (and quite rare) scenario would be two empty cars per cabinet, getting 60-75kW charging. I regularly get 120kW charging when I'm on the road.
If this is the case why is Tesla now charging congestion fees to eliminate congestion? Not questioning your experience, just pointing out that it may not be typical.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Each US-JP Supercharger cabinet is 120-135kW and can split that between two stations. It can also give 100% to one car. In the EU and China they are 135-150kW per cabinet. It is rare to pull into a Supercharger and have all cabinets occupied, forcing a share situation. The worst case (and quite rare) scenario would be two empty cars per cabinet, getting 60-75kW charging. I regularly get 120kW charging when I'm on the road.
Oh, that surprises me. I thought the cabinets were 200 kW each. If you don't mind my asking, Chris, are the Superchargers relatively crowded in your area. It's common for me to drive by my local Supercharger and see it full (or only one or two bays empty).

I can understand why. When the supercharging area is empty or even half full, everyone can get a higher rate of charging. If 2 vehicles are plugged into the same feed, they will share until one car is full, then the other gets the higher charge rate.
Yeah. I understood the concept, and I am aware of another company (ABB) that has proposed a similar model for public CCS stations in Europe. I'm a fan of the model, and I think it works well for a scaleable rollout of fast chargers. I just didn't realize that Tesla was doing it. Hearing the way people speak about the Superchargers, I was assuming 6 to 8 P100Ds could roll into a Supercharger station, all plug in, and each be drawing 150 kW. That is clearly not the case.

I put this in the "it's never exactly true" category but it's not worth worrying about. So many things are rated for their maximum under ideal conditions that rarely occur. To use an example from an entirely different area, cameras will be rated at a frames per second shooting speed but an actual photographer using the camera will never see these speeds. There are just a lot of variables. Same type of thing with hard disks or memory cards -- the rated speeds are rarely if ever seen in practice.

Moreover, the actual speed is likely more determined by the size of the pack than by the charger.

I don't think it's any surprise that you see "elitism" from Tesla owners. They've bought a Veblen vehicle! What do you expect. LOL
I don't think it is as much of an issue now, but I think it could be in the future. Despite how similar EVs are in their functionality to ICEVs, some of the differences would be completely foreign to the average ICEV driver. I really think some of these companies need to be doing a better job about fully disclosing some of the quirkier aspects of owning an EV.

Also, in regards to some of the elitism. I have seen quite a few videos of Tesla owners testing out CHAdeMO adapters and making disparaging comments about how "slow" their 40 kW recharge rates where. All the while, had they pulled into a crowded Supercharger with a cold battery and over 50% SOC, they'd be lucky to see those same rates.
 

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Since Superchargers are ubiquitous, fast, free, and always available, it seems strange that Tesla owners even bother with CHAdeMO.
 

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Since Superchargers are ubiquitous, fast, free, and always available, it seems strange that Tesla owners even bother with CHAdeMO.
CHAdeMO was basically a requirement in Japan. A quick perusal of Japan in plugshare shows literally thousands of CHAdeMO locations, but only a handful of Supercharger sites. Even the BMW i3 has a CHAdeMO port in Japan. Since CHAdeMO is identical world wide, once the adapter was available for one market it was easy to make it available elsewhere. And there are CHAdeMO sites in many places where Superchargers aren't.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Tesla to introduce a CCS adapter. Given that most CCS chargers also have a CHAdeMO cable, it probably isn't that vital. But long term, CCS will overtake CHAdeMO.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Tesla to introduce a CCS adapter. Given that most CCS chargers also have a CHAdeMO cable, it probably isn't that vital. But long term, CCS will overtake CHAdeMO.
I think that is going to depend on Europe. My understanding of the new standard is that public chargers must be SAE combo, but may also be CSS. In essence, no more solely CHAdeMO public chargers can be installed. As long as a majority of the chargers are installed as CCS, I think Tesla has less urgency to develop a SAE combo adapter.
 

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I don't think it is as much of an issue now, but I think it could be in the future. Despite how similar EVs are in their functionality to ICEVs, some of the differences would be completely foreign to the average ICEV driver. I really think some of these companies need to be doing a better job about fully disclosing some of the quirkier aspects of owning an EV.

Also, in regards to some of the elitism. I have seen quite a few videos of Tesla owners testing out CHAdeMO adapters and making disparaging comments about how "slow" their 40 kW recharge rates where. All the while, had they pulled into a crowded Supercharger with a cold battery and over 50% SOC, they'd be lucky to see those same rates.
I understand about the transparency but if there are many variables then what is the charging rate? Specifying the maximum under ideal conditions is a fairly well established practice in a number of industries -- ask anyone using cable for an internet connection -- so I don't see that it's terribly misleading.

On the CHAdeMO chargers, I was just pointing out that many Model S owners, not all by any means, bought the car in order to feel superior. Hence it's not surprising that they go out of their way to find ways to express the superior nature of their choice.
 

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The problem with a CCS adapter for Tesla cars is not technical, it's financial. They could have made one 2 years ago.

However, that would have given Chargepoint and EVgo (et al) a reason to expand their network quicker, which would negatively affect the marketing advantage that the Supercharger investment has given them.

Once there are cars with long range that use CCS on the road in significant numbers, you will most likely see a CCS/Tesla adapter available.

It simply is not to Tesla's advantage to accelerate the growth of remote CCS locations to permit CCS EV's to travel interstate easily.

However, most drivers do not drive interstate, so the actual pragmatic advantage of having DCFC ability in the fly over states isn't nearly as great as the marketing advantage.

But read the Tesla boards. One of the common issues is Superchargers that do not charge at full power, or Superchargers that have waiting lines. This is something CCS could alleviate, so I believe it to be poor decision not to make CCS/Tesla adapter as far as Tesla owners go.
 

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Is it true that the Tesla Superchargers are not true 150 kW? My understanding is each charger is paired with another charger, and they can only produce a maximum of 200 kW.

I find this a bit funny because it seems that many Tesla drivers are a bit snobby about charge rates when referring to DCFC and CHAdeMO stations. However, it seems like the stars need to align in order for a Tesla to actually exceed 50-100 kW charging in the real world.

It also occurs to me that when the planned 100 kW CCS stations are installed and available, the Bolt could see fast charging rates comparable to what many Tesla owners are currently experiencing. It makes the elitism I've seen from Tesla owners all the more puzzling.
I have seen Teslas connected to Superchargers before and they definitely can get at least 110 kW. New ones may get 150 kW. To help preserve battery life, after about a 50% energy level has been reached, the power will gradually be reduced below 110 kW but it still generally stays above 50 kW. When two Teslas are connected to the same Supercharger pair, the first one to connect gets the maximum power rate (e.g. 110 kW or possibly 150 kW) however the second one will likely get a rate under 100 kW until the first car is done charging.

Also I don't understand the elitist attitude you have been experiencing as all of the Tesla owners I have met have been very nice.
 

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Oh, that surprises me. I thought the cabinets were 200 kW each. If you don't mind my asking, Chris, are the Superchargers relatively crowded in your area. It's common for me to drive by my local Supercharger and see it full (or only one or two bays empty).
The only Superchargers I've seen full are when we would do ribbon cutting ceremonies or club trips. Other than that, I've seen them 50-75% full during holiday weekends. Not once, have I ever waited to charge at a Supercharger. There was one time I had to wait for the single CHAdeMO charger to free up in a city that didn't have a Supercharger, but that was a year or so ago. There's a Supercharger there, now.

The problem with a CCS adapter for Tesla cars is not technical, it's financial. They could have made one 2 years ago.

However, that would have given Chargepoint and EVgo (et al) a reason to expand their network quicker, which would negatively affect the marketing advantage that the Supercharger investment has given them.
Actually, Tesla's official statement was because CCS was so sparse and customer demand wasn't there. I have yet to come across a CCS station that wasn't a CHAdeMO combo, unless it was at a BMW dealership.

...

Moreover, the actual speed is likely more determined by the size of the pack than by the charger.

I don't think it's any surprise that you see "elitism" from Tesla owners. They've bought a Veblen vehicle! What do you expect. LOL

If this is the case why is Tesla now charging congestion fees to eliminate congestion? Not questioning your experience, just pointing out that it may not be typical.
They are charging this fee because of the asshats in places like LA and SFO that sit and park. Elon has clarified that a Tesla owners will not incur fees if the Supercharger is "deserted."

This really isn't going to be an issue for the people that aren't the parking space hogs. The Tesla app notifies you when your car is almost finished, which is about 15 minutes, and when it is complete. In that "charging complete" message, it does say you should move your car. That's when the 5 minute timer starts, so you definitely get a ~20 minute warning.
 

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I'm curious how many miles the free yearly 400 kWh buys me, as if I were to get a tesla, it will definitely not be before dec 31st. At the moment, I'm thinking about an S, I don't want the 3 (too small), and the falcon doors on the X just scare me to death. Are there any x owners in this Midwest ICE storm who can let us now how the falcons are holding up? I'm hoping for a future CUV or even a truck/suburban sized tesla with hefty towing capacity. Then again, I could also just buy a Silverado/sububan and then there'd be a reason to get a corvette-like 2 seater.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I have seen Teslas connected to Superchargers before and they definitely can get at least 110 kW. New ones may get 150 kW. To help preserve battery life, after about a 50% energy level has been reached, the power will gradually be reduced below 110 kW but it still generally stays above 50 kW. When two Teslas are connected to the same Supercharger pair, the first one to connect gets the maximum power rate (e.g. 110 kW or possibly 150 kW) however the second one will likely get a rate under 100 kW until the first car is done charging.
I understand how it works, but to list it as 150 kW charging when that can only be true of one vehicle at a time seems a bit misleading. Based on Chris's experiences, Tesla might have run the numbers and determined that only a 200 kW cabinet is required because they rarely have two vehicles capable of charging at >100 kW occupying the same stall at the same time.

Also I don't understand the elitist attitude you have been experiencing as all of the Tesla owners I have met have been very nice.
Just because someone is elitist doesn't mean they can't also be nice. I've seen it in a number of places, including several online publications that show obvious favoritism and elitism for Teslas over other EVs. We see that attitude here a lot as well, where many are quick to jump on the perception that Tesla's batteries and electronics are superior to GM's without any evidence to back it. "Oh. The Bolt charge at 80 kW? I doubt it. Its coolant system could never handle it! Oh, the Model 3 with a 50 kWh battery pack should easily charge at 100 kW!!!"

In this specific instance, I've seen Tesla owners testing out CHAdeMO adapters and scoffing at how slow the 40 kW charging was despite a relatively high state of charge and low temperatures. When I first heard it, I thought, "Well, sure. Teslas can charge faster." Then I find out that they actually cannot. It seems to be mostly marketing right now that is fueling Tesla superiority, but many owners seem to be reflecting it (in the form of elitism).
 

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If this is the case why is Tesla now charging congestion fees to eliminate congestion? Not questioning your experience, just pointing out that it may not be typical.
Because urban California. California has a combination of:
- LOTS of Teslas
- Apartment dwellers
- Expensive electricity.

It all adds up to people using the Superchargers to charge. It wouldn't be _that_ big a deal, except that some people are Why We Can't Have Nice Things TM, plug in at the Supercharger and just leave their car there.
 

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Just to add another note. Just because a station is rated at 120KW doesn't mean that a Tesla can actually draw that amount. The supercharger charge rate tapers down quite a bit and it does it fairly early in the SOC window. A Model S/X 100 can draw 120KW from about 10% to 40% SOC then the charge rate begins to taper. A Model S/X 75 can draw 120KW only from about 10 to 30% SOC before the charge rate tapers down.

Also of note there is a 350KW CCS/CHAdeMO station (four charging units) that has started construction in the US:
http://insideevs.com/evgo-installing-first-350-kw-ultra-fast-public-charging-station-us/
 

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<snip>
I was assuming 6 to 8 P100Ds could roll into a Supercharger station, all plug in, and each be drawing 150 kW. That is clearly not the case.
<snip>
So the below is my X drawing 112 kW. How many amps would 150 kW be and then multiply that by 8 cars???

Would that size transformer even be available at all the locations but they hundreds of utilities across the USA??? (GM said there were 300+ electric utilities to deal with across the USA in a presentation I recall).

It is not clear you are understanding the magnitude of what you are asking and what is realistically and technical available at these hundreds of locations!!

A place for you to play: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=382+volts+*+294+amps

 

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Discussion Starter #20
Oh, I'm aware of what I'm asking. I didn't do the marketing... Tesla did.

In my opinion, the best solution would be sites with built in battery backups. Imagine that each charger was fed by, say, a Bolt battery. That battery tied to an inverter can easily output 160 kW, and it only needs to be constantly "trickle charged" to remain full. The entire site (8 to 12 stalls) should easily be fed by an average business scale transformer. I don't think I'm asking too much, and apparently EVgo doesn't either, because they will be building 350 kW chargers soon.
 
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