[mikejz]

I noticed that there seems to be a very pro-100% EV tone on this group, as opposed to a focus on the highly efficient use of petro fuel by supplementing it with electric propulsion.

This somewhat intrigues me as I personally have no problem with the continued reliance on gasoline fueled cars provided that the fuel efficiency is raised to a point that consumption is significantly less than it is now, and therefore making gas prices de minimis in the total cost of car ownership.

The central point seems to be the sentiment that a plug-in parallel hybrid (IE a plug-in Prius) is simply not adequate because it still relies on gasoline, albeit a very small amount.

So here is my question, what is the premium that you would be willing to pay for a RE-EV over a PHEV assuming that both will consume a minuscule amount of gasoline compared to tradition ICE cars?

 

[Texas]

I personally want to get off of burning fossil fuels as soon as practical. The hybrid is a great transition technology until battery technology advances and recharging infrastructure reaches critical mass. After that I don't expect to look back.

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

My only desire is to eliminate the importation of foreign petroleum products - crude oil, refined oil products, natural gas, etc. Too much of our economy is based on the consumption of foreign commodities whose prices are skyrocketing due to demand for those commodities from India and China.

Already, our food prices, and other basic necessities are increasing in price due to the energy component of their creation and distribution. The sooner we reduce our needs to the point where we are no longer importing these commodities, the sooner we control these price pressures.

 

[Eric E]

Advantages of Electric Motor over ICE

The advantages are many, the following comments are based on the concept that many people (approx 68%) who drive a Volt will rarely use gasoline or the ICE, and with the intentions of the Volt sparking the overall transition of the worldwide auto fleet to electric.

ICE cars are dirty, noisy, inefficient, high maintenance, self destructing contraptions.

1) Dirty: Internal Combustion Engines drip oil contaminating the ground, blow smoke contaminating the air, make noise contaminating the quiet, and necessitate the dirty infrastructure required to maintain them. From oil refineries polluting the air and oil tankers polluting the water, to your local gas station polluting the ground in your own back yard. By contrast, an EV does not require oil, does not burn fuel, and the entire infrastructure all the way to your home (except coal plants) is almost entirely chemical and emission free, and will only become cleaner as time passes.

2) Noisy: Because an EV is almost completely silent at urban speeds, it would have an amazing effect on the noise level of high density urban areas if widely adopted. The minimized availibility of electricity due to battery limitations also minimizes the size of overpowered booming stereo systems. The ever present drone of the ICE would be replaced by silence.

3) Inefficient: For every 100 BTUs sucked out of the Earth's crust, 15-17% actually turns the wheels of an ICE powered car. The rest (83%+) is waste...pure waste. After 100+ years perfecting the ICE thats as good as we can do. 100 years from now we could concievably reach efficiencies of 75-80% for electric cars.

4) High Maintenance: Oil changes, brake pads, transmission fluid, engine anti-freeze coolant, spark plugs, lifters, rods, starter motor, transmission cooler, injectors, oil filter, gas filter, gas pump, air filter, tail pipes, muffler, smog pump, etc. will all be significantly reduced or eliminated altogether in an EV.

5) Self destructing contraption: The very nature of the ICE car with the high stress put on all of its components will cause it to self-destruct in a relatively short period of time when compared to an EV. Thus creating even more waste. By contrast, the simplicity and low stress put on the components of an EV give it a significantly longer life expectancy.

These are some things to consider besides the common arguments; dependency on oil, monthly fuel cost savings, Co2 emissions, etc.

 

[Texas]

From the perspective of an oil man:

The advantages of ICEs are many, the following

1) Dirty: Internal Combustion Engines give off the smell of victory! I love that smell in the morning... What, you too weak to get your hands dirty? Sissy.

2) Noisy: This is the best part of the ICE. I remember meeting my wife at the diner. I pulled in with my big V8 and revved it until she noticed me. Love at first sight.

3) Inefficient: For every 100 BTUs sucked out of the Earth's crust, 15-17% actually turns the wheels of an ICE powered car -That just shows you how powerful oil is! Oh and it feels so good between my fingers.

4) High Maintenance: Oil changes, brake pads, transmission fluid, engine anti-freeze coolant, spark plugs, lifters, rods, starter motor, transmission cooler, injectors, oil filter, gas filter, gas pump, air filter, tail pipes, muffler, smog pump, etc. will all be significantly reduced or eliminated altogether in an EV - How are you going to keep all the union workers on the line? Making spare parts, duh! Those glorified golf carts are going to ruin the auto companies.

5) Self destructing contraption: The very nature of the ICE car with the high stress put on all of its components will cause it to self-destruct in a relatively short period of time when compared to an EV. - You become a man by fixing your ride. If it never broke down I wouldn't have got that first kiss with my wife.

These are some things to consider besides the common arguments; dependency on oil, monthly fuel cost savings, Co2 emissions, etc - yeah, if your a liberal! We are never going to run out of oil because the earth makes the oil at it's core. You didn't get that memo? The rain cleans the pollution and one bad storm does more damage than 50 years of running cars. Also, I like it hot. Instead of moving to Florida I can just stay here, up North. I don't see what the big fuss is.

 

[mikejz]

What I'm really driving at (pun intended) is that in the debate between PHEVs vs. RE-EVs what is the actual monetary amount that people are willing to spend for the latter over the former. I was not really focuing on ICE cars in general, but trying to gauge the price premium the people on this group would be willing to pay for the Volt over a Prius Plug-in (styling cues aside).

As an aside, the argument that ICE engines are unreliable is really going away, the industry has shown that they can make highly reliable and long-life cars if they want to. People in my experience get rid of their cars for reasons other than mechanical failure these days. There are plenty of 1993 Camry's with 240,000 miles with minimal maintenance that can attest to that. Cars seem more and more to be replaced due to structural damage (accidents) and rust than from failing ICE parts.

 

[Koz]

Assuming an E-REV and a PHEV both have the very similar fuel economy, performance, styling, and functionality for me; I would still be willing to pay 15% more for the E-REV. I am willing to pay this premium because of:
-Eric E 's reasons 1, 2, 4, & 5 (3 should be similar for both cars, at least for the initial battery)
-Performance may be the same for starting and stopping tests, but all EV offers much greater control opportunities with the motor. Traction control, cornering, and uneven breaking conditions will addressed better with a properly engineered EV.
-Future upgradability. A PHEV will depend on the ICE and electric motor that are designed in tandem. In all likelihood it will make more sense to replace the car than to replace the battery. If LI technology continues to improve at the pace it has been since commercialization, I could replace the battery in 10 years with one that has 4 times the capacity and costs 1/4 of the original. For my driving, the E-REV will then be using less gas than the PHEV could even with a battery upgrade.
-Each successive generation of E-REV will have more EV range and require less ICE capability. I believe this offers a better and faster path to even less gasoline usage and lower future pricing than a PHEV.

Of course, this is assuming they use similar amounts of gas for my driving. In reality (I believe Toyota would have to refute their own study to disagree http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/determining-the.html#more), a PHEV that uses a similar amount of gas to a well designed E-REV (I believe the Volt as currently described does qualify) will always fundamentally cost more or at best close to the same amount of money. In order for the E-REV to use similar gas and not be cost advantaged for most driving patterns, it will have to be significantly less efficient in generator mode than the PHEV is in HEV mode.

 

[Koz]

proper link

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/determining-the.html#more

 

[mikejz]

So if Toyota's Plug-in Prius was $31,000 and the Volt was $38,000, you would drive the Prius?

 

[Koz]

So if Toyota's Plug-in Prius was $31,000 and the Volt was $38,000, you would drive the Prius?

If it performs similarly, is comparable in style, has similar fuel economy, and has similar functionality then I would buy the PHEV Prius for $31K before the Volt for $38K. BUT, nothing that I have seen communicated regarding the plug-in Prius indicates that it will satisfy even one of these criteria.

 

[pennor1]

The main reason for getting away from all fossil fuels, as I see it, is that we are running out of them. In the not too distant future they will be gone, then what fuel do we use?

 

[hvacman]

cool factor

The "cool" factor is a big one.
I mean, why buy a Hummer? Why buy a Lexus? Why did Prius's get so popular 4 years ago when the economics at the time didn't justify the added expense?

There's "green" cool, "macho" cool, "wealthy" cool. The Volt hopes to grab both major "green" and some "macho" cool. Cool sells, regardless of the bottom line economics.

 

[Koz]

The "cool" factor is a big one.
I mean, why buy a Hummer? Why buy a Lexus? Why did Prius's get so popular 4 years ago when the economics at the time didn't justify the added expense?

There's "green" cool, "macho" cool, "wealthy" cool. The Volt hopes to grab both major "green" and some "macho" cool. Cool sells, regardless of the bottom line economics.

filed under style

 

[Dave B]

My only desire is to eliminate the importation of foreign petroleum products - crude oil, refined oil products, natural gas, etc. Too much of our economy is based on the consumption of foreign commodities whose prices are skyrocketing due to demand for those commodities from India and China.

Already, our food prices, and other basic necessities are increasing in price due to the energy component of their creation and distribution. The sooner we reduce our needs to the point where we are no longer importing these commodities, the sooner we control these price pressures.

Ditto. People seem to underestimate the danger we face if suddenly oil were not available tomorrow. It would be chaos and send us back to the stone age.

 

[Eric E]

From the perspective of an oil man:

The advantages of ICEs are many, the following

1) Dirty: Internal Combustion Engines give off the smell of victory! I love that smell in the morning... What, you too weak to get your hands dirty? Sissy.

2) Noisy: This is the best part of the ICE. I remember meeting my wife at the diner. I pulled in with my big V8 and revved it until she noticed me. Love at first sight.

3) Inefficient: For every 100 BTUs sucked out of the Earth's crust, 15-17% actually turns the wheels of an ICE powered car -That just shows you how powerful oil is! Oh and it feels so good between my fingers.

4) High Maintenance: Oil changes, brake pads, transmission fluid, engine anti-freeze coolant, spark plugs, lifters, rods, starter motor, transmission cooler, injectors, oil filter, gas filter, gas pump, air filter, tail pipes, muffler, smog pump, etc. will all be significantly reduced or eliminated altogether in an EV - How are you going to keep all the union workers on the line? Making spare parts, duh! Those glorified golf carts are going to ruin the auto companies.

5) Self destructing contraption: The very nature of the ICE car with the high stress put on all of its components will cause it to self-destruct in a relatively short period of time when compared to an EV. - You become a man by fixing your ride. If it never broke down I wouldn't have got that first kiss with my wife.

These are some things to consider besides the common arguments; dependency on oil, monthly fuel cost savings, Co2 emissions, etc - yeah, if your a liberal! We are never going to run out of oil because the earth makes the oil at it's core. You didn't get that memo? The rain cleans the pollution and one bad storm does more damage than 50 years of running cars. Also, I like it hot. Instead of moving to Florida I can just stay here, up North. I don't see what the big fuss is.

I about fell out of my chair...that is totally hilarious!

...I cant stop laughing...

 

[Rooster]

The main reason for getting away from all fossil fuels, as I see it, is that we are running out of them. In the not too distant future they will be gone, then what fuel do we use?

Seriously, quit worrying. There is a lot of advanced, carbon neutral, synthetic fuel technology that is proprietary and not public. Hydrocarbon fuel from algae is just the tip of the spear. With oil at nearly $120/bbl, venture capitalists are lining up to bring these technologies to market. As with the Volt, it is going to take several years before they start showing up. In the interim, it's going to be painful at the pump. We can not displace petroleum overnight.