GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,289 Posts
Speaking of Motor Trend, congrats to FCA for winning the 2018 Motor Trend Car of the Year with the Alfa Romero Guilia, and Mary Barra supplanting your idol Elon as 2018 MT Person of the Year! Tesla shut out of the awards this year. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,796 Posts
Is this list of superlatives all in relation to the BMW 330i?

Stock really sticky tires?
'steers quicker', what metric it that?
'quarter the energy', that can be said of any EV vs a gasser.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
They should really compare it to the 340i, the 330i is a lot cheaper if you ignore incentives.

That being said, it performs very well, especially in the 45-65 test, it will pass very rapidly.

Tesla knows they sell EVs by outperforming equivalently priced gassers. None of the other companies have figured that out yet.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
As pointed out, the editors of Motor Trend did say that on the performance front it did get stomped by the much less expensive GIULIA. Not that it really matters. Most driving you can't do at the track. However, if you wanted to take a car to the track you probably wouldn't want an electric that will go into propulsion reduced mode after half a lap.

Tesla knows they sell EVs by outperforming equivalently priced gassers. None of the other companies have figured that out yet.
Motor Trend didn't think the Model 3 does. It found the less expensive gasser to have much higher performance. Again, not that it matters as a practical matter for driving on city streets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
However, if you wanted to take a car to the track you probably wouldn't want an electric that will go into propulsion reduced mode after half a lap.
And there's the rest of the story. What it can do it can't do for very long. If you want to race this is your EV:



Caution: If you're sensitive the the high-pitched whine of an EV this car is not for you.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
I guess you are arguing Don that Tesla doesn't know how to sell EVs? Very few of these people take the cars to the track. They want the fastest from a stop light or a on ramp, with good overall handling while having a green image. The Model 3 is set to sell 10x Bolt EV volumes, even the 2-3x more expensive Model S sells as well as the Bollt EV does (and it is discounted 10 to 20%). If you want fast and cheap, buy a Dodge Charger/Challenger SRT8 or higher. BMWs are relatively slow for their price bracket too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,796 Posts
....However, if you wanted to take a car to the track you probably wouldn't want an electric that will go into propulsion reduced mode after half a lap...
Interesting point!
I saw where a Model S does that after some flogging on a track.
They tested the Model 3 until that mode kicked in?

Just to stir it up....:p

If you tracked a Bolt, does it drop into that mode?
How would a base Bolt and base Model 3 do competing on a road course for ?10-20 laps? (similar tires to be fair)

(T can 'ludicrously' get power from the pack and motor(s) for a while -- before heat catches up.
And don't they limit your 'Fun Times' using those Go Fast Modes, presumably to keep from degrading the pack and gadknows what else.. ?)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Interesting point!

If you tracked a Bolt, does it drop into that mode?
How would a base Bolt and base Model 3 do competing on a road course for ?10-20 laps? (similar tires to be fair)

(T can 'ludicrously' get power from the pack and motor(s) for a while -- before heat catches up.
And don't they limit your 'Fun Times' using those Go Fast Modes, presumably to keep from degrading the pack and gadknows what else.. ?)
They have run the bolt at Laguna seca and it does go into a limp mode. If I remember correctly the bolt did faster laps than the model S.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,796 Posts
They have run the bolt at Laguna seca and it does go into a limp mode. If I remember correctly the bolt did faster laps than the model S.
Where can we find info about a Bolt outrunning its TMS the way a Tesla does routinely?

You're tight, one Bolt did beat one Model S and one Roadster,,,,,
So,, yes and no....

But! Spark EV! Represent!:D

You're right. Yes and no. Some wealthy guys flogged their cars one weekend.
We need a Stig to drive these cars, one at a time, on the clock, similar tires.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,796 Posts
.. Very few of these people take the cars to the track. They want the fastest from a stop light or a on ramp, with good overall handling while having a green image. ....
I totally agree with this aspect of owning an EV!

It's the whole IMAGE thing that i can't understand.
Whatever this IMAGE may be,, where does it come from and why does Tesla dominate it? Why do people swoon?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
283 Posts
And there's the rest of the story. What it can do it can't do for very long. If you want to race this is your EV:



Caution: If you're sensitive the the high-pitched whine of an EV this car is not for you.

What you are hearing is straight cut spur gears. Silent (or quieter) helical gears can be used but you lose efficiency and create heat and thrust loads on both shafts that must be countered. No racer would trade a few units of power or range to be quieter, knowing his competition won't.

You could have a noise restriction to herd gear development in that direction. There are gear designs that are nearly silent while allowing the efficiency of straight cut gears.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
We need a Stig to drive these cars, one at a time, on the clock, similar tires.
The Stig would be a good test driver. The Bolt and S are in different classes. I think if The Stig can get the Bolt to go as fast, that would be saying something. As I recall someone with a bit of racing experience recently pointed out that Tesla handling sucks on the track. I expect the Bolt probably does too, but The Stig can drive anything.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
I guess you are arguing Don that Tesla doesn't know how to sell EVs? Very few of these people take the cars to the track. They want the fastest from a stop light or a on ramp, with good overall handling while having a green image. The Model 3 is set to sell 10x Bolt EV volumes, even the 2-3x more expensive Model S sells as well as the Bollt EV does (and it is discounted 10 to 20%). If you want fast and cheap, buy a Dodge Charger/Challenger SRT8 or higher. BMWs are relatively slow for their price bracket too.
I'm not opining. I'm just pointing out what Motor Trend had to say about the performance of the Model 3. If you don't agree argue with them.

I didn't say that Tesla didn't know how to sell cars. I am, however, very skeptical of your estimate of how many Model 3s Tesla can sell. Part of that is the experience that Nissan had with the Leaf, where a majority of the pre-orders never turned into sales. And part is that Tesla got everyone all excited about the prospect of being able to buy a $35K Model S with a tax $7500 credit. Lots of those folks may not be so enthused by a Model 3 that costs $45K sans tax credit. In fact, while I don't have the numbers, I doubt that all manufacturers together sell more sedans than 10X the Bolt EV at a $45K price point. There just are not that many buyers in the price range. Toss in the fact that many prospective buyers, in fact perhaps the best prospective buyers, lack access to charging, and the numbers become daunting.

I also have my doubts about how many buyers harbor adolescent fantasies of being race car drivers. But perhaps I'm mistaken on that one. I do know that, with one exception, the women I know who are interested in electric cars are more interested in the Bolt EV and have no interest in the Model 3. Small sample for sure but likely more representative than what you find online.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
As I recall someone with a bit of racing experience recently pointed out that Tesla handling sucks on the track. I expect the Bolt probably does too, but The Stig can drive anything.
What I remember is something along the lines of "far better than what you would expect from a car this heavy". So I'm thinking more middling, or even better than average, than terrible. The great advantage electrics have is coming out of corners. That's where ICE vehicles struggle and where electrics shine.

Put separate motors on each wheel with great vectoring software and active rear wheel steering and you could have pretty spiffy handling.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
Whatever this IMAGE may be,, where does it come from and why does Tesla dominate it? Why do people swoon?
Some people have a knack for self promotion. Building a brand is hard work. Look at Ferrari where you have to prove yourself worthy in order to buy one! But my favorite or least favorite is Maserati. Hard to say why anyone thinks these things are desirable but lots of them are in the parking lot. At the end of the day, once something is a Veblen good there is no rational explanation. People want status and they'll pay for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,416 Posts
What I remember is something along the lines of "far better than what you would expect from a car this heavy". So I'm thinking more middling, or even better than average, than terrible.
It was stated that a 4-cylinder Camaro could beat the pants off of an S on the track. I'm not going to fetch the quote. It was last week.

Put separate motors on each wheel with great vectoring software and active rear wheel steering and you could have pretty spiffy handling.
Sounds Quattro-like. Yes you could. I wonder who will - Porsche?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Thermal issues really limit electric cars to drag races. They just are not designed to handle max power for long periods of time.

I know on our Rc cars the motor efficiency is a really important factor. Most classes become thermal limited with the motor not being able to shed enough heat. Minor decreases in resistance result in faster laps. Also battery ir is important as it controls voltage sag under big loads. Back in the early day of lipos, say 2005-2006 packs were rated in max burst amps and max continuous amps. Very different ratings. I would guess the ev's have the same issues and might be why the long range tm3 has better performance. Larger battery has better performance.
I also suspect that the $9k price difference between the long range and standard is simply a different pack along with profit to make the numbers work. Especially as the Bolt pack only costs $13k for a full 60kwh. So the 20 kWh difference should only cost about $4-$5k.
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top