GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I read recently about the Model X driver who jammed the accelerator while parking and ended up driving into a building.

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-x-owner-claims-suv-accelerated-on-its-own-then-crashed/

Tesla has claimed the driver pressed the accelerator, and this was not the result of any software malfunction. So, assuming that is correct, it makes me wonder whether one-pedal driving might partially be to blame.

I understand that it is still the responsibility of the driver to know how to control the vehicle, but this is where I think GM did a much better job than Tesla. We are still in an early adoption phase for EVs, and most people are transitioning from ICEV to EV. When I first test drove the Volt, I was surprised to find that when I released my foot from the brake the car started to creep just like an ICEV. After I thought about it for a second, it made perfect sense. That is exactly how someone coming from an ICEV would expect a vehicle to act.

Now, in the case of Tesla, they are very proud of their one-pedal driving feature, and I think it's great. Even transitioning from an ICEV, one-pedal driving would have been fine for me, personally. However, I had done years and years of research, and at the time I purchased my Volt, I was on the fence as to whether I was going to build my own EV or buy one. What I am saying by this is, I am not the average consumer who is brand new to EVs.

The average consumer will be brand new to EVs, and as a result, they will likely just want to get in, drive, and enjoy the EV driving experience. One problem though: ICEVs creep and roll. If you are in a parking spot with your foot lightly touching a pedal and the car is not moving, you might very well assume your foot is on the brake. And we press brake pedals hard. Anyone who has transitioned from manuals to automatics and back can attest to this: Muscle memory can result in random floor stomping and embarrassing stall outs.

My understanding is that this driver was relatively new to his Model X. Even though this incident is technically user error, I think it would be a good idea for Tesla to consider the potential role one-pedal driving played in this incident, and how they can preemptively address future incidents. Next time, someone could get seriously hurt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,661 Posts
Tesla has a "creep" mode that is driver configurable, The Volt has ONE PEDAL driving as well so that could happen to a Volt owner too. Neither vehicle will come to a complete stop using this method, you still need to apply the brakes the last few MPH and to STOP the vehicle completely.

Not sure what you are trying to say or imply?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Tesla has a "creep" mode that is driver configurable, The Volt has ONE PEDAL driving as well so that could happen to a Volt owner too. Neither vehicle will come to a complete stop using this method, you still need to apply the brakes the last few MPH and to STOP the vehicle completely.

Not sure what you are trying to say or imply?
The creep mode might be driver configurable, but my understanding is that Tesla models come from the factory with zero creep or "true" one-pedal driving.

Also, please tell me where the Volt's one-pedal driving is configured? The Volt cannot come to a complete stop if the brake pedal is not depressed. The only exception I know to this is the Gen 2 Volt, which has the regenerative paddle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
526 Posts
I don't' see how "one pedal" driving would be responsible for this crash. The pedal on the right makes it go, the pedal on the left makes it stop. Lifting off the pedal on the right makes it slow down, just like every other car, ICE or electric. It may slow down faster, but its still the same operation.

It is simply a case of getting pedals mixed up. And given the immediate nature of EV acceleration, difficult to recover from.

Elemental hasn't been around for a while, but if he were to weigh in, he would certainly point out that a woman was driving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
You cannot configure one pedal driving on the Volt.

If you want greater regen, you need "low" (or touch the regen paddles, if you have that option).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
578 Posts
My issue with one-pedal driving the volt in L is that the rapid deceleration from heavy regen braking can slow the vehicle rapidly without the brake lights tell a following vehicle that it is rapidly slowing. I guess muscle memory would still make you move your foot too the brake pedal and tap it anyway though.


Dennis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
112 Posts
The creep mode might be driver configurable, but my understanding is that Tesla models come from the factory with zero creep or "true" one-pedal driving.

Also, please tell me where the Volt's one-pedal driving is configured? The Volt cannot come to a complete stop if the brake pedal is not depressed. The only exception I know to this is the Gen 2 Volt, which has the regenerative paddle.
The Gen2 can't come to a complete stop using the regen paddle. Almost, but not quite. You must still use the brake pedal to stop the car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Unlikely, people do this all the time with two pedal driving. "I tried to hit the brake and stomped on gas instead". If anything one pedal driving will make this less likely as stopping is lifting your foot off the pedal, not pressing harder.

The real issue is your average person probably should not have a 500 to 700+ HP vehicle. The model X nearly shot through the corner of the building, and as owner points out it could have been a lot worse had they hit the store front.

That type of vehicle needs to be treated with the same respect as a loaded gun. Really.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
That type of vehicle needs to be treated with the same respect as a loaded gun. Really.
All vehicles, really.

I see everyone's point that this could happen in any vehicle, but the obvious difference is the amount of power/acceleration. However, I still can't help feeling that the learning curve is a bit higher than many of us assume.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Exactly, the extra power just makes it happen quicker, could still happen with any car as you say. People lose respect for cars as they become easier to drive (or maybe makes driving too accessible). Self driving cars will remedy this, but I hope they don't get too popular until I am too old to drive myself :)

This didn't make national news since it didn't involve a gun, but it shows just how deadly passenger vehicles can be in such a situation :
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/06/09/kalamazoo-truck-crash-5-cyclists-died-arraignment/85645050/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
677 Posts
Not if they come from manual transmissions as I did... I HATE creep in EVs!

That is exactly how someone coming from an ICEV would expect a vehicle to act.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,981 Posts
My issue with one-pedal driving the volt in L is that the rapid deceleration from heavy regen braking can slow the vehicle rapidly without the brake lights tell a following vehicle that it is rapidly slowing. I guess muscle memory would still make you move your foot too the brake pedal and tap it anyway though.


Dennis
Federal law requires the brake light to come on when the deceleration rate meets a minimum threshold. The regen in Gen 1 Volts doesn't meet the threshold, so no brake light. The heavier regen in Gen 2 Volts using the regen paddle does, so the brake lights come on.

As you say, you can always use your brake peddle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Not if they come from manual transmissions as I did... I HATE creep in EVs!
I'll admit that manual transmissions are the best ICEV analog to EVs due to the compression braking and the lack of creep, but sadly, many drivers these days can't even operate a manual transmission vehicle. Hence why I was referring to the average driver requiring a steeper learning curve than many assume.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
907 Posts
You do have something there. I like the creep, it's the way auto trannies have always been. At low speed, I drive with my foot hovering over the brake pedal, not the accelerator. Volt is no different. In a parking lot, it might be one pedal driving, but it's the brake pedal, not the accelerator, your foot is on. I've driven a model S twice, even in the default mode, I found myself hovering my foot over the brake pedal, although it often wasn't necessary. In a panic situation, the brain reverts to training, the repetitive motion it's done before. You're in a parking lot... the car is stopped... your brain subconsciously thinks your foot must already be on the brake. The brain can be re-trained, but that takes time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,634 Posts
I suspect this is simple driver error that is completely irrelevant to the car being driven.
Driver is fishing for an excuse to shift blame for his mistake.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
People have been burrowing vehicles into buildings for as long as there's been cars. The usual cause is pressing harder on the gas, thinking it's the brake OR the foot is on both pedals (which the car's software should be able to detect).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
You do have something there. I like the creep, it's the way auto trannies have always been. At low speed, I drive with my foot hovering over the brake pedal, not the accelerator. Volt is no different. In a parking lot, it might be one pedal driving, but it's the brake pedal, not the accelerator, your foot is on. I've driven a model S twice, even in the default mode, I found myself hovering my foot over the brake pedal, although it often wasn't necessary. In a panic situation, the brain reverts to training, the repetitive motion it's done before. You're in a parking lot... the car is stopped... your brain subconsciously thinks your foot must already be on the brake. The brain can be re-trained, but that takes time.
Your post made a good point to me... half the time when I shut off my Volt I hit the brakes, even though you don't have to for shut down, my brain says "hand reaching for blue button, put foot on brake" If it is the same with the Tesla, and the driver came to a stop via regenerative brakes and still had foot over accelerator... as she reached for the "off" button on the screen she may have by habit pushed her foot down...

Interesting thought that I would not have considered without your post.

Keith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I suspect this is simple driver error that is completely irrelevant to the car being driven.
Driver is fishing for an excuse to shift blame for his mistake.
The moment you start assigning blame is the moment you block yourself off from correcting potential issues. Could this have been driver error pure and simple? Sure. But assuming that without considering potential design issues closes yourself off to opportunities for improvement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,556 Posts
Crashed into a nail salon.... Don't let elemental see this, he'll have a field day with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
Federal law requires the brake light to come on when the deceleration rate meets a minimum threshold. The regen in Gen 1 Volts doesn't meet the threshold, so no brake light. The heavier regen in Gen 2 Volts using the regen paddle does, so the brake lights come on.

As you say, you can always use your brake peddle.
When did this law go on the books? Must be after 2015 but I never heard of it.

Keith
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top