[Synergy3214]

Hey Folks,

I'm really looking forward to getting into either a 2018 Bolt or Volt when my 2015 Volt lease is up. Just wondering if you guys think that the 2018 Volt will get a little battery bump, in turn increasing the AER of the 2018 Volt by a few miles. Only reason I ask is because look at the Gen 1 Volt. In 2013 it got an increase in AER, and also in 2015. Do you think GM will follow suit with the 2018 Volt?

 

[imanjunk1963]

I hope so. I am in the same position but want to upgrade from my 2014 owned volt. But only if the pieces fall into place. Most have, range is one that has not yet.

 

[firehawk72]

Hey Folks,

I'm really looking forward to getting into either a 2018 Bolt or Volt when my 2015 Volt lease is up. Just wondering if you guys think that the 2018 Volt will get a little battery bump, in turn increasing the AER of the 2018 Volt by a few miles. Only reason I ask is because look at the Gen 1 Volt. In 2013 it got an increase in AER, and also in 2015. Do you think GM will follow suit with the 2018 Volt?

Personally, I doubt it. Battery tech is advancing, but the bumps from 2011 and after were mostly chemistry, playing it safe, and not discharging the battery to low. GM learned from all that, and became much more confident in degradation, or lack of, and opened up the battery a little bit while changing the chemistry. Also, the new Volt was built Voltec specific, so I wouldn't expect much of anything until a new gen3 is released. But hey, what do I know. I am still waiting on the SUV/CUV Voltec design we saw WAY back in the day.

 

[Bacardi]

With the Gen1, it was GM's only EV they had yet to release the ELR, Spark EV, the Gen2 Volt and the Bolt EV, it made sense to continually improve the range for your future models...It also was released with 35 miles of range, which was only 15 miles away from gaining more ZEV credits...The Gen2 is now 22 miles away from gaining more ZEV credits...For marketing purposes, would a bump of 5 miles (58 miles of range) make any difference? We also don't know sales, it's not selling all that well and competition is going to be stiff with the Prime which is both cheaper and gives you all the safety features and ACC at a lower price than the base LT Volt...You also have the Bolt EV to cannibalize sales...A lot of consumers and even dealers have had difficulty explaining the Volt and I'm certain many dealers will be saying "what sounds better 53 (or whatever the bump is) or 238?"...So it's quite possible there could be a sharp decline in sales...Last random thought (I obviously have a lot of them) if advantages could be gained, would make sense to use the Bolt's cells...

Personally, I'd love to see one of 3 things for MY18...
1. Add C1/C2/ACC standard to ALL Volts...Or...
2. Get the price to $29,995 even if you have to remove a feature or two...
3. Get the ICE up to 53mpg, would be so much easier to explain the Volt if you had matching range and mpg "your choice to get 53 miles of range or get 53 mpg"...

I believe any of the above would boost sales far more than slight bump in range...

 

[gaulfinger]

The Bolt EV is supposed to be coming with 60kWh from a 960 lb pack. If the Volt's 400 lb pack were upgraded to that energy density, it would be 25 kWh instead of 18.4. So there's evidence that GM could do more, assuming a 40% scale version of the Bolt's batteries could still deliver the power... So room to hope?

 

[quirkySquirt]

What I really hope for is possibility to upgrade existing MY16/17 batteries to the chemistry used in the Bolt. For current 18.4 pack, you only use 14 kWh so 53 miles / 14 = 3.79 miles / kWh. Using gaulfinger's numbers for a battery chemistry upgrade within existing MY16/17 battery footprint and the same ratio of usable battery ( 14 / 18.4 = 76% usable), a MY16/17 Volt could easily get 25 kW x 0.76 x 3.79 miles = 72 miles of range. That over a third increase in range!

Given lack of aftermarket upgrades to Gen 1 Volts' batteries, I'm hopelessly dreaming. :-(

 

[accelerus]

What I really hope for is possibility to upgrade existing MY16/17 batteries to the chemistry used in the Bolt. For current 18.4 pack, you only use 14 kWh so 53 miles / 14 = 3.79 miles / kWh. Using gaulfinger's numbers for a battery chemistry upgrade within existing MY16/17 battery footprint and the same ratio of usable battery ( 14 / 18.4 = 76% usable), a MY16/17 Volt could easily get 25 kW x 0.76 x 3.79 miles = 72 miles of range. That over a third increase in range!

Given lack of aftermarket upgrades to Gen 1 Volts' batteries, I'm hopelessly dreaming. :-(

You and me both -- with my commute to work being around 75 miles round trip each day (mostly highway) I'd absolutely love an extra 20 miles or so of range. Right now my average over 7000 miles is about 70% EV mode. Not bad... but would love it to be 85 or 90%

GM being GM, I don't see this happening. It's a fun thought though.

 

[Dakster]

What I really hope for is possibility to upgrade existing MY16/17 batteries to the chemistry used in the Bolt. For current 18.4 pack, you only use 14 kWh so 53 miles / 14 = 3.79 miles / kWh. Using gaulfinger's numbers for a battery chemistry upgrade within existing MY16/17 battery footprint and the same ratio of usable battery ( 14 / 18.4 = 76% usable), a MY16/17 Volt could easily get 25 kW x 0.76 x 3.79 miles = 72 miles of range. That over a third increase in range!

Given lack of aftermarket upgrades to Gen 1 Volts' batteries, I'm hopelessly dreaming. :-(

Would be nice to see to more range... I think it can be done too... and after the CR article on the Gen II Volt - I could see a bump up in range.

 

[Loboc]

If your next car is going to be an EV, messing with Volt's range is a moot point.

We're already at around 90% of all commuters. Raising Volt's range 10% won't get any more buyers. Especially if it costs more. Heck, my ELR has enough range for my normal commute.

If you don't discharge the battery every day with a PHEV, ya got too much range. That's the whole premise. Ya gotta run the engine anyway just to maintain it.

The rate of EV development means that PHEV may be a dinosaur in a few generations. Tesla is already touting their "double density" storage solutions. Putting double density in a Model S means over 400mi of range.

 

[Whatstreet]

The EV and PHEV are really all about the ZEV credits. Without incentives automakers would not develop these cars. It's obvious that GM could increase range with the current battery pack foot print. The remaining question is the increase in cost worth the ZEV credit increase. It might be that the additional cost isn't that much and might even lead to a reduction in cost.

 

[RFE]

Loboc,

"If you don't discharge the battery every day with a PHEV, ya got too much range."

I disagree to a point. I understand the premise.

One reason is I don't want to plug in my car everyday. I did not fill my ICE with gas every day.

The second reason is for the long trips.

My commute everyday is 66 miles. My 2013 volts gets about 53 miles during the summer. But I have taken a trip to Maryland and back which over 700 miles one way. I also travel 126 miles, one way, to my summer home every weekend during the summer months.

I would love more range. I really don't want a Bolt or a Tesla.

 

[jsmay311]

Yeah, seeing a small bump in range from incremental improvements in the battery chemistry and energy density is certainly possible. We saw that in 2013. But there was also an increase in battery capacity in 2015 but they didn't bother to re-test the car, so the official range didn't change.

I'd guess there's a 50/50 chance of it staying the same or increasing by a few miles.

Get the ICE up to 53mpg, would be so much easier to explain the Volt if you had matching range and mpg "your choice to get 53 miles of range or get 53 mpg"...

I hope that was meant as tongue-in-cheek.

The idea that you take an existing, already-well-engineered vehicle and improve its efficiency by 26% without a significant redesign is awfully far-fetched.

 

[Synergy3214]

Good points in this thread guys. I think it's going to boil down to leasing costs, and which one is cheaper. If the Volt is going to be +- $75 a month cheaper than the Bolt, then that might be a deciding factor. I suppose we'll find out soon enough when the Bolt starts to hit dealerships.

 

[Bacardi]

I hope that was meant as tongue-in-cheek.

The idea that you take an existing, already-well-engineered vehicle and improve its efficiency by 26% without a significant redesign is awfully far-fetched.

The Malibu Hybrid which is a larger car already gets 46mpg with an engine from the same family and Voltec powertrain...The Prius Prime, again a larger car gets 54mpg...So does "well engineered" mean "well enough"? With these huge incentives they keep throwing of the Volt, might as well roll them back and work on the ICE...50+mpgs would make quite a headliner and a big jump in sales...Then even people who would have never thought they'd owned an EV could get an opportunity to enjoy an EV's "luxurious smooth and quite ride"...

 

[rand49er]

If your next car is going to be an EV, messing with Volt's range is a moot point.

We're already at around 90% of all commuters. Raising Volt's range 10% won't get any more buyers. Especially if it costs more. Heck, my ELR has enough range for my normal commute.

If you don't discharge the battery every day with a PHEV, ya got too much range. That's the whole premise. Ya gotta run the engine anyway just to maintain it.

The rate of EV development means that PHEV may be a dinosaur in a few generations. Tesla is already touting their "double density" storage solutions. Putting double density in a Model S means over 400mi of range.

That's the beauty of the Volt, and I fully understand the rationale behind your point, however, it's a marketing thing. Even though you might not use all the power of a 400-hp car, the fact that it has more than a 380-hp competitor helps sell it. Plus, if a 53-mile range gets 90% of the needs of people, even those people would like to cover that 10% of the time they'd need to stay full EV.

A range war is brewing, and GM wants/needs to participate.

 

[alfon]

I think everyone would like extra electric range in the Volt. Battery development takes time and we our quite satisfied with our 2016 Volt being able to easily get over 50 miles on a charge. I can see the next generation Volt increasing the range by another 15-20 miles to possibly 70 miles or so. Also perhaps a super fuel efficient gasoline engine obtaining over 50 mpg, (EPA), just on gas would be welcomed as well. I know our 2014 Volt only obtained high 30's to 40 mpg this time of year just on gas. Now our 2016 Volt is getting 45 + mpg on gas. I would imagine the same mpg increase would occur on the next generation Volt 3 along with electric range increase.

The only issue would be the federal expiration of the federal tax credit of $7,500. That would turn off perhaps future buyers.

 

[rmay635703]

I honestly don't think there is any reason to increase battery size on the volt.
I do think they should

1. Improve cold weather performance
(Hint Malibu exhaust heat recovery)
2. Reduce weight
3. Improve aero
4. Reduce MSRP

 

[quirkySquirt]

Battery development takes time and we our quite satisfied with our 2016 Volt being able to easily get over 50 miles on a charge.

The Bolt chem has better kWh/lbs battery performance that if we changed nothing in our Volt except the battery pack (same form factor, same control hardware, same rate of charge/discharge) and some config settings for when "full" was, then you'd get an upgrade from a 18.4 kWh (14 kWh usable) to a 25 kWh (19 kWh usable), or an upgrade from 53 miles to 72 miles EV range. This would be the path of minimal cost to GM since no design change necessary except maybe recertification of the car's safety with the new battery back (fire related stuff) and reprogramming the battery maintenance system to reflect the larger battery capacity.

I honestly don't think there is any reason to increase battery size on the volt.
I do think they should

1. Improve cold weather performance
(Hint Malibu exhaust heat recovery)
2. Reduce weight
3. Improve aero
4. Reduce MSRP

Your above changes would be too costly engineering and design wise for a MY18 refresh. For MY19? Maybe.

 

[Bacardi]

The Bolt chem has better kWh/lbs battery performance that if we changed nothing in our Volt except the battery pack (same form factor, same control hardware, same rate of charge/discharge) and some config settings for when "full" was, then you'd get an upgrade from a 18.4 kWh (14 kWh usable) to a 25 kWh (19 kWh usable), or an upgrade from 53 miles to 72 miles EV range. This would be the path of minimal cost to GM since no design change necessary except maybe recertification of the car's safety with the new battery back (fire related stuff) and reprogramming the battery maintenance system to reflect the larger battery capacity.


Your above changes would be too costly engineering and design wise for a MY18 refresh. For MY19? Maybe.

Yeah, as I was saying moving to the Bolt's battery components could actually be cheaper than the status quo and additionally if they could get to 72 miles of range you might as well get to 75 which gains you another half ZEV credit...

There could be a few cheap things to do to improve aero but it would appear they missed the boat on that...

An interesting aspect is the new Cruze hatchback, would be fairly easy to add "Voltec" that; heck could even label it as a red hot CUV since CUV doesn't have a true definition...

 

[Splitting Atoms]

I am guessing the Bolt's chemistry is more energy density-focused. It may not be able to deliver the Volt's needed power if you cut it in half.