[lrichards]

I just finished reading about the Volt in the latest issue of The Atlantic magazine. It occurs to me that having a battery that needs to be plugged in to an electric outlet to be recharged is completely defeating the purpose of an electric car. The electricity will still most likely be generated by fossil fuel.

A suggestion. Include a free standing solar array with the car that will charge up to 2 or 3 batteries at a time. Design the batteries so that they can easily be removed from the car by pulling on a handle and then be plugged into the solar charger as you would plug in any appliance in your home. One could remove and replace a depleted battery easily. If the battery was good for 40 miles and the average user only drove 20 you would replace a battery every two days. If the solar charger was designed to recharge 3 batteries at a time within 4 hours or so , you would only need a sunny day every 6 days and most solar panels work even on an overcast day - granted not as efficiently.

This all assumes of course that the price of the batteries come down to the point where a person could afford to purchase 3 or 4 batteries - which I admit is a very large assumption.

The solar charger could be placed in any sunny location - indoors or out and would completely eliminate any use of fossil fuels to run the car.

 

[Texas]

I just finished reading about the Volt in the latest issue of The Atlantic magazine. It occurs to me that having a battery that needs to be plugged in to an electric outlet to be recharged is completely defeating the purpose of an electric car. The electricity will still most likely be generated by fossil fuel.

A suggestion. Include a free standing solar array with the car that will charge up to 2 or 3 batteries at a time. Design the batteries so that they can easily be removed from the car by pulling on a handle and then be plugged into the solar charger as you would plug in any appliance in your home. One could remove and replace a depleted battery easily. If the battery was good for 40 miles and the average user only drove 20 you would replace a battery every two days. If the solar charger was designed to recharge 3 batteries at a time within 4 hours or so , you would only need a sunny day every 6 days and most solar panels work even on an overcast day - granted not as efficiently.

This all assumes of course that the price of the batteries come down to the point where a person could afford to purchase 3 or 4 batteries - which I admit is a very large assumption.

The solar charger could be placed in any sunny location - indoors or out and would completely eliminate any use of fossil fuels to run the car.

Well, your first paragraph is the same old argument used by the electric car naysayers. You are completely wrong but let's for a moment say you were right. Let's say we moved the energy to power our cars from oil to the dirtiest power plant we have in America. I guess it's very dirty, stinky and many decades old. There. Done.

Now your argument is that we only moved the pollution from the tail pipe to the smoke stack. Right? Yeah, we have heard it all before. What you and others who keep bringing up the same tired argument fail to understand is that there is a far bigger problem. The biggest problem we face is not our dirty coal power plants. Are you listening? We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. We could power all of our cars with dirty coal power plants and our country would be in a far better place.

The biggest problem we face is spending over $1 billion a day to foreign countries for oil. We have a huge trade imbalance and owe in excess of $5 trillion. That along is extremely serious and unsustainable. Do you understand that? Please read up on the petrol dollar for more information. It's shocking. Now add to that our economic stability is in the hands of OPEC and other countries that could shut us down completely if they really wanted to. Have you been hearing about how Iran is threatening to just shut off the strait if they are attacked? I think they could cause serious global supply problems. It would force us into another costly war. Untold people would be killed. Oil is only the first of the non-renewable energy resources that is facing serious supply problems.

Your other idea of giving away a free solar array sounds just as nice. However, please do a little research into the cost of batteries and solar systems. You will find that free is not part of the equation. This new technology is just becoming practical and is hard to come by and extremely expensive compared to traditional energy sources.

Do you know how much a lithium-ion battery pack weighs? Well, let's just say you could give up your gym membership. Heck, even Arnold could give up his. Nobody anytime soon is going to haul 16 kWhs worth of batteries into his house more than once.

Welcome to the forum and enjoy all of the discussions on many of the things you brought up. There are a lot of great minds at work around the world on these problems and I think we are basically headed in a good direction. Governments need to get some better advice but other than that the scientists, inventors, engineers, etc. are kicking some serious butt. There is a lot at stake. Fame, fortune, failure. Stick around, it should be an amazing show.

 

[swimdad623]

I just finished reading about the Volt in the latest issue of The Atlantic magazine. It occurs to me that having a battery that needs to be plugged in to an electric outlet to be recharged is completely defeating the purpose of an electric car. The electricity will still most likely be generated by fossil fuel.

A suggestion. Include a free standing solar array with the car that will charge up to 2 or 3 batteries at a time. Design the batteries so that they can easily be removed from the car by pulling on a handle and then be plugged into the solar charger as you would plug in any appliance in your home. One could remove and replace a depleted battery easily. If the battery was good for 40 miles and the average user only drove 20 you would replace a battery every two days. If the solar charger was designed to recharge 3 batteries at a time within 4 hours or so , you would only need a sunny day every 6 days and most solar panels work even on an overcast day - granted not as efficiently.

This all assumes of course that the price of the batteries come down to the point where a person could afford to purchase 3 or 4 batteries - which I admit is a very large assumption.

The solar charger could be placed in any sunny location - indoors or out and would completely eliminate any use of fossil fuels to run the car.

Unfortunately, both of these ideas have been tried before, and neither have worked.

The idea of swapping batteries has been tried numerous times, on cars, trucks, and busses. It always comes back to the same problem - designing the vehicle to allow battery swaps compromises the structural integrity of the frame and body. Almost every car today is made with a unit body construction that doesn't allow the large body gaps that would be required to allow the batteries to be removed. Even worse, lithium batters like the ones used on the Volt throw off so much heat when discharging that they have to be liquid cooled, which means that someone swapping the batteries must also connect electrical and coolant connections - a lot of work for someone without auto mechanic skills.

As for the solar charger, this doesn't make a lot of sense either. Remember that electricity is fungible - one kilowatt-hour works like any other kilowatt hour. That means that you can take the power from the solar charger and feed it directly into the grid, and charge your Volt from elsewhere on the grid with no net effect. If that's the case, then why tie the charger to the car - just put solar panels somewhere with the optimal placement for generating grid power, and then use that to power the grid (and Volts vehicles somewhere else).

Finally, keep in mind that most people will be charging their Volts at night, when the electricity costs go down between midnight and 5AM. If they don't, then we'll start seeing surges and failures on the neoghborhood transformers that support 5-20 houses at a time. Since solar panels don't work at night, this means that the solar panels will generate power for daytime use, and the utility baseload power charges the volt. Oddly enough, the baseload power has the least carbon impact of all of the power types (peakload has the most), so the Volt will actually have a small net increase on the carbon emissions.

 

[Texas]

Unfortunately, both of these ideas have been tried before, and neither have worked.

The idea of swapping batteries has been tried numerous times, on cars, trucks, and busses. It always comes back to the same problem - designing the vehicle to allow battery swaps compromises the structural integrity of the frame and body. Almost every car today is made with a unit body construction that doesn't allow the large body gaps that would be required to allow the batteries to be removed. Even worse, lithium batters like the ones used on the Volt throw off so much heat when discharging that they have to be liquid cooled, which means that someone swapping the batteries must also connect electrical and coolant connections - a lot of work for someone without auto mechanic skills.

I have to disagree with you about what you posted. Project Better Place is fully funded and working hard on what you say will not work. It will not only work but it is being designed at this very moment for full scale production. Will it be able to compete against yet-to-be-developed quick-charge batteries is the question. Battery swap technology is here today so maybe they will be first out of the gate.

Even if Project Better Place is wrong they will still have a full BEV and regular speed charging stations all over Israel. All they would need to do is convert the swap-out stations to quick-charge stations. Not a big deal since most of the work of setting up the locations and infrastructure will already be done. However, nobody is going to be hand-swapping those monsters. Just spend some time at http://www.projectbetterplace.com/ and you are likely to agree that it's an extremely interesting idea at the very least.

 

[Koz]

What many people fail to consider is how seldom many people travel more than 150 miles in day. Sure there are people that drive more daily and more that do it on regular basis, but there a lot of people that only do it a handful or less times in a year. Particularly second cars for families. It may be hard for sawapping or quick charging to gain a foothold because of the limited market. Texas knows that I agree swapping is current tech and has a leg up on quick charging, but quick charging is simpler (in important ways) more elegent solution. Swapping also has the advantage of allowing for lower vehicle costs and more personalized configurations. With current estimates of $300-$1200/KWh of battery capacity, there is a great incentive not to buy what you don't regularly need. Swapping allows owners to do this but still have extended battery range available on the rare occasions it's needed. There are other options beyond swapping and fast charging that may come into play.

Personaly, I'ld prefer a 150 mile BEV with an ICE range extending trailer that doubles as my emergency home backup generator.

 

[swimdad623]

I have to disagree with you about what you posted. Project Better Place is fully funded and working hard on what you say will not work. It will not only work but it is being designed at this very moment for full scale production. Will it be able to compete against yet-to-be-developed quick-charge batteries is the question. Battery swap technology is here today so maybe they will be first out of the gate.

Even if Project Better Place is wrong they will still have a full BEV and regular speed charging stations all over Israel. All they would need to do is convert the swap-out stations to quick-charge stations. Not a big deal since most of the work of setting up the locations and infrastructure will already be done. However, nobody is going to be hand-swapping those monsters. Just spend some time at http://www.projectbetterplace.com/ and you are likely to agree that it's an extremely interesting idea at the very least.

I took a long look at the PBP web site, and I still don't see how the battery swap idea will work. I see issues from a financial perspective, and a mechanical perspective.

Financially, the PBP web site assumes that there new battery technology available that will outlive the life of the car. The only batteries that have that feature today are the Altairnano batteries, which currently go for about $2500/KWH - way too expensive. The batteries used in the volt are the stable-chemistry type (not the kind used in the Tesla) and they cost about $600/KWH or about $10K for the 16KWH battery. An all-electric vehicle would require more batteries - at least 25KWH to handle a 100 mile range (with no reserves at all). A battery that size would not only cost $15K, but the charging infrastructure would need another $15K in batteries to have one waiting at the charging station. One-for-one is about the minimum number of charging batteries needed, since you would always need to have one charged battery always available. Two batteries (one in the car and one in the station) would be a $30K expense, and we're talking even more expense to support the construction and maintenace of the charging station. All this would add $35K-$50K to the price of each car, which prices it out of normal range (even with creative leasing).

Mechanically, the PBP web site places the battery between the two real wheels and replaces it from below. The problem is that eliminates the placement of the sway bars for front-drive vehicles, and the rear differential for four-wheel-drive vehicles. Note that the Tesla also places the battery between the real wheels, but installs it from above, and loses the back seat in the process.

Also, the PBP plan assumes that the battery pack can be replaced robotically, and that all cars have the same pack design. It doesn't take the liquid cooling requirements into account for the batteries (lithium batteries throw off a lot of heat while operating, and it takes liquid cooling to get it out of the pack - especially in hot climates). Also, the requirement for a uniform battery pack causes issues with multiple car designs. When Volt Nation met in NYC, we had the chance to speak with the Volt engineers. They said that they couldn't guarantee that the battery pack would remain the same through the next iteration of the Volt, much less for small and larger car designs. 25KWH of batteries weigh 600+ pounds - too much weight for a small car while 25KWH would be too small for a big car. A single battery design wouldn't be a good fit for multiple types of cars.

The problem is simple - designing a practical electric car is HARD! the world has had 110 years of experience with the internal combustion engine, and serious work has only been taking place on electric cars for the last 10 years. Tesla took over four years of work to come up with their product, and it's only going into limited production now (a few thousand hand-built cars per year). GM started the Volt project in January 2007, and it's going to take until late 2010 until the cars come off the line.

I personally see a future in the Volt because it's the bridge between internal combustion and all-electric cars. The Volt's unlimited range means that I can drive it anywhere without the fear of running out of charge. Once a lot of cars are plug-in hybrids like this, then offices and shopping centers will start installing charging stations. Once they arrive, then people will give up the internal combustion range extender, knowing that they can charge at the office or the mall.

I'd really like to see the PBP idea work, but the numbers just don't support it. One of the videos on their site says that they will have cars on the street in the first or second quarter of 2008. Given that they're not here yet, I think they see that it's harder than it looks to build just a practical electric car, much less an entire new infrastructure to support it. I wish them luck, but for now I've got more confidence in the Volt and other comparable ideas.

 

[Texas]

I took a long look at the PBP web site, and I still don't see how the battery swap idea will work. I see issues from a financial perspective, and a mechanical perspective.

Financially, the PBP web site assumes that there new battery technology available that will outlive the life of the car. The only batteries that have that feature today are the Altairnano batteries, which currently go for about $2500/KWH - way too expensive. The batteries used in the volt are the stable-chemistry type (not the kind used in the Tesla) and they cost about $600/KWH or about $10K for the 16KWH battery. An all-electric vehicle would require more batteries - at least 25KWH to handle a 100 mile range (with no reserves at all). A battery that size would not only cost $15K, but the charging infrastructure would need another $15K in batteries to have one waiting at the charging station. One-for-one is about the minimum number of charging batteries needed, since you would always need to have one charged battery always available. Two batteries (one in the car and one in the station) would be a $30K expense, and we're talking even more expense to support the construction and maintenace of the charging station. All this would add $35K-$50K to the price of each car, which prices it out of normal range (even with creative leasing).

Mechanically, the PBP web site places the battery between the two real wheels and replaces it from below. The problem is that eliminates the placement of the sway bars for front-drive vehicles, and the rear differential for four-wheel-drive vehicles. Note that the Tesla also places the battery between the real wheels, but installs it from above, and loses the back seat in the process.

Also, the PBP plan assumes that the battery pack can be replaced robotically, and that all cars have the same pack design. It doesn't take the liquid cooling requirements into account for the batteries (lithium batteries throw off a lot of heat while operating, and it takes liquid cooling to get it out of the pack - especially in hot climates). Also, the requirement for a uniform battery pack causes issues with multiple car designs. When Volt Nation met in NYC, we had the chance to speak with the Volt engineers. They said that they couldn't guarantee that the battery pack would remain the same through the next iteration of the Volt, much less for small and larger car designs. 25KWH of batteries weigh 600+ pounds - too much weight for a small car while 25KWH would be too small for a big car. A single battery design wouldn't be a good fit for multiple types of cars.

The problem is simple - designing a practical electric car is HARD! the world has had 110 years of experience with the internal combustion engine, and serious work has only been taking place on electric cars for the last 10 years. Tesla took over four years of work to come up with their product, and it's only going into limited production now (a few thousand hand-built cars per year). GM started the Volt project in January 2007, and it's going to take until late 2010 until the cars come off the line.

I personally see a future in the Volt because it's the bridge between internal combustion and all-electric cars. The Volt's unlimited range means that I can drive it anywhere without the fear of running out of charge. Once a lot of cars are plug-in hybrids like this, then offices and shopping centers will start installing charging stations. Once they arrive, then people will give up the internal combustion range extender, knowing that they can charge at the office or the mall.

I'd really like to see the PBP idea work, but the numbers just don't support it. One of the videos on their site says that they will have cars on the street in the first or second quarter of 2008. Given that they're not here yet, I think they see that it's harder than it looks to build just a practical electric car, much less an entire new infrastructure to support it. I wish them luck, but for now I've got more confidence in the Volt and other comparable ideas.

What is this about the battery outlasting the car? Where did you get that? The beauty of using a swap-out system is that you can swap out any battery you wish. If one is going bad you put in a better one. As the technology improves you just replace the inside of the battery package with newer battery technology. I think most people would agree that the swap-out system improves the risk of battery life expectancy, not reduces it.

The mechanical problems you bring up are only engineering problems. They pale in comparison to battery technology issues. Nissan has more than enough talent to pull this off. Might be delayed for a year or two but so what? They still need to put in all of the charging infrastructure first. It's a chicken and the egg scenario. Shai Agassi is a genius with a lot of powerful people and money behind him. I don't doubt that a working car and infrastructure will be built. I have doubts about how it will be adopted by the masses or if it will be competitive with plug-in hybrids or advanced battery technology that is yet to become available.

Financially, the cell phone model is sound. I have listened to several of his speeches, looked at the numbers, etc. I think for the right situation (Israel's political and geopolitical) and location (island like isolated nation) the system could be quite successful. However, if it’s not tried nobody will know for sure. It's a great project! How come you can't accept it's value? Why not do it and see what happens? Do you think it’s a waste of time and money? Hardly! I know I'm looking forward to having many questions about the electrification of the automobile answered. I'm baffled as to why you are so against the attempt. What’s a matter with you? lol

 

[Texas]

How timely!

"PORTUGAL will be one of the first countries in the world to join the ‘Better Place’ electric car project backed by Renault and Nissan."


http://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/9145.html


So that's now Israel, Denmark and now Portugal. Hey swimdad, What are you thoughts about that? Are all of these countries and the venture capitalists crazy and stupid?

 

[Altazi]

There are always those who want to find a way to make things happen, and also those who want to find ways for things to NOT happen.

 

[DaV8or]

So that's now Israel, Denmark and now Portugal. Hey swimdad, What are you thoughts about that? Are all of these countries and the venture capitalists crazy and stupid?

Are you saying that governments don't dump money into impractical ideas? I wouldn't get your hopes up on PBP, these governments and others are probably just committing enough money to see a test demonstration and based on the success of testing they might put in a bit more. Much of this is political, they can show the constituency that they are doing something to help get away from high priced oil. The system may prove to be very unworkable and die in an Israeli desert somewhere.

I personally believe the battery swap idea is silly. Even if they do end up building a successful working swapping station, I believe that battery and capacitor technology will make the battery swap obsolete very soon. Investment in this side of PBP would be a big waste of money IMO.

The inductive chargers may be of use for parking areas, but it has to be compared to the cost effectiveness and efficiency of traditional conductive charging. I suspect it's not worth it. Electrifying highways is a massive undertaking and require a lot of capital as well as additional power plants. Here again, battery technology may soon make this technology obsolete.

In the end, I suspect that what will come of PBP will be a very nice but expensive charging station option.

 

[Texas]

Are you saying that governments don't dump money into impractical ideas? I wouldn't get your hopes up on PBP, these governments and others are probably just committing enough money to see a test demonstration and based on the success of testing they might put in a bit more. Much of this is political, they can show the constituency that they are doing something to help get away from high priced oil. The system may prove to be very unworkable and die in an Israeli desert somewhere.

I personally believe the battery swap idea is silly. Even if they do end up building a successful working swapping station, I believe that battery and capacitor technology will make the battery swap obsolete very soon. Investment in this side of PBP would be a big waste of money IMO.

The inductive chargers may be of use for parking areas, but it has to be compared to the cost effectiveness and efficiency of traditional conductive charging. I suspect it's not worth it. Electrifying highways is a massive undertaking and require a lot of capital as well as additional power plants. Here again, battery technology may soon make this technology obsolete.

In the end, I suspect that what will come of PBP will be a very nice but expensive charging station option.

OK, you lost me. Are you sure you understand what is going on? The electric car used in Project Better Place is just an BEV that you can (you don't have to) swap out. The normal charging can be plug-in or induction charging. The induction charging would be more convenient because you don't have to do anything. You just drive in the space and the charging takes place and will probably bill you at the same time. How much easier could that be? Induction is not inefficient? Induction was used to charge the EV1 and the Rav 4. It is just safer and cleaner than a direct contact. However, both can be used.

With the Project Better Place system, even if the swap-out stations were a complete failure, they would still have the normal charging station infrastructure built out.

Electrification of the highways? What are you talking about? Also, the swap-out stations will just be converted to quick-charge stations when quick-charge batteries become a reality. What is so hard about that?

 

[seib169]

I've quickly read message and replies. Seems to me all that pulling batteries in and out is not necessary. You should be able to plug the car in directly from the panels. The battery exchange, I believe is a looser. As for at night, have a solar setup at work during the day. It's very plausable. Charging station should be an option you buy, expensive, yea, but not prohibitive especially in exchange for 4-$5 gasoline or deregulated electric. The advantage of solar directly to the car is that the batters stores the fungible electric. Putting solar on the grid and then take it back off is a looser since the grid pays a lot less and sells it for a lot more. That's why you want to tie the charger to the car

 

[Texas]

I've quickly read message and replies. Seems to me all that pulling batteries in and out is not necessary. You should be able to plug the car in directly from the panels. The battery exchange, I believe is a looser. As for at night, have a solar setup at work during the day. It's very plausable. Charging station should be an option you buy, expensive, yea, but not prohibitive especially in exchange for 4-$5 gasoline or deregulated electric. The advantage of solar directly to the car is that the batters stores the fungible electric. Putting solar on the grid and then take it back off is a looser since the grid pays a lot less and sells it for a lot more. That's why you want to tie the charger to the car

seib169, Imagine you live in NY and want to take your BEV to your Mom's house in Ohio. That's the kind of situation we are talking about. Quick-charge batteries are not quite ready for volume production. PBP wants to get to the market quickly using the best lithium-ion batteries that are expected to be avalable at the time of their launch. They would either have to wait for quick-charge battery technology to mature or use existing slow-charge but safe lithium-ion technology (still very new) and put in swap-out stations. See the delema? When quick-charge batteries are ready for mass production they can then convert the swap-out stations to quick-charge statons (using battery banks for battery-to-battery energy transfer) and they will still be ahead of everyone else. That's their plan. Makes good sense to me, especially in the three countries that have signed agreements with them. They are fully funded and moving at a rapid pace to get this all up and running. Sit back and enjoy the show. We will all learn from their bold project.

 

[pennor1]

Solar output vs battery charging requirements

It would be wonderful if a small stand alone solar cell would charge the Volt's battery pack. Too bad the electronics don't work out for this.

It will take about 12 KWH to fully charge the Volt battery. Now assume that you will do this every night 365 days a year, you'll need about 4380 KWH a year charge up the Volt. The average solar system installed on homes today is about 3KW. Now these are rough estimates based on actual experince. You can roughly figure that a 3KW system will generate about 3000KWH per year. You'll see that this is a fairly direct relationship of the size of the array times 1000 to come up with the average yearly output. This will vary by location, the southwest will get better performance, cloudy northern coastal areas will get a bit less, but use the 1000 factor as an average.

So to serve as a fairly adequate charger for the Volt, you'll need about a 5KW roof top system which will be about 35'X17' of panels. That's hardly a little portable system that you can set up next to the volt for charging.

So, yes, you can do it. You'll need to carpet a good portion of your homes roof with solar panels and install the necessary inverters and batteries so you can recharge at night when your Volt is at home but the sun is not shining.

Of course you can connect your 5KW system to your local grid and net meter your output. That might be a little cheaper than the batteries for a direct connection. Now depending of State incentives which vary widely, and whether the federal tax credit for solar is renewed pasted 2008 (there is some chance it may not be), and what incentives if any your local utility might offer, the cost to install a 5KW sysem could run as high as $35,000 or more.

So double the cost of the volt, install a solar charger, and you may save about $500/yr in grid supplied electricty.

 

[silvercorvette]

Does anyone know how heavy these batteries are? I am guessing between 1/4 to 1/2 a ton. Even if they are a bit less than 1/4 ton they won't be easy to swap. The little 12 volt battery in my car can be picked up without much of a problem but I sure wouldn't want to do it every day.

 

[Texas]

Does anyone know how heavy these batteries are? I am guessing between 1/4 to 1/2 a ton. Even if they are a bit less than 1/4 ton they won't be easy to swap. The little 12 volt battery in my car can be picked up without much of a problem but I sure wouldn't want to do it every day.

Don't forget your car battery is made of lead. The new EV battery packs are made of lithium-ion material. Very light! The resulting battery pack is still heavy but don't worry, It's a simple engineering problem make a workable swap-out system.

 

[silvercorvette]

Don't forget your car battery is made of lead. The new EV battery packs are made of lithium-ion material. Very light! The resulting battery pack is still heavy but don't worry, It's a simple engineering problem make a workable swap-out system.

They are lighter but they must be a lot bigger to have enough power to move the car any distance. My guess is that a standard 12 volt lead acid battery will only move a car weighing a few couple thousand pounds a few thousand feet. The L/Is will be ligther but there will be a lot more of them

PS I have a lexus hybrid that uses a nickel-metal hydride battery. I have expermented to see how far I can go without the ICE starting and best guess is 3 to 5 miles. I have to keep the speed under 15 to 20 MPH to keep the enginge from turning itself on. I didn't measure my best guess is the space but the nickel-metal hydride batteries take up one cubic yard of space. So even if the L/Is can pack more power into a smaller space they still must take up a few cubic feet of volume if they are going to move a car 60 miles on battery power. so even if weight isn't a factor size will be

 

[Texas]

They are lighter but they must be a lot bigger to have enough power to move the car any distance. My guess is that a standard 12 volt lead acid battery will only move a car weighing a few couple thousand pounds a few thousand feet. The L/Is will be ligther but there will be a lot more of them

PS I have a lexus hybrid that uses a nickel-metal hydride battery. I have expermented to see how far I can go without the ICE starting and best guess is 3 to 5 miles. I have to keep the speed under 15 to 20 MPH to keep the enginge from turning itself on. I didn't measure my best guess is the space but the nickel-metal hydride batteries take up one cubic yard of space. So even if the L/Is can pack more power into a smaller space they still must take up a few cubic feet of volume if they are going to move a car 60 miles on battery power. so even if weight isn't a factor size will be

Weight and volume will be factors. However, those problems are easily overcome compared to figuring out the battery chemistry and design. Now that's uncharted territory. Slinging a few tons around? No problem at all. Where do you want it and when. We know the package is not that outrageous (Tesla and even the EV1). Just sit tight and watch PBP show you how it's done.

 

[DaV8or]

They are lighter but they must be a lot bigger to have enough power to move the car any distance. My guess is that a standard 12 volt lead acid battery will only move a car weighing a few couple thousand pounds a few thousand feet. The L/Is will be ligther but there will be a lot more of them

Well, for example, GM tells us that the 16kwh battery pack for the Volt weighs about 400 lbs. Tesla tells us that theirs weighs in at 900 lbs. I would think that somewhere around 700 to 1000 lbs would be about the size needed for the five passenger sedans proposed in PBP. Quick change battery stations? Not practical. This part of the PBP will go by the way side.

 

[Texas]

Well, for example, GM tells us that the 16kwh battery pack for the Volt weighs about 400 lbs. Tesla tells us that theirs weighs in at 900 lbs. I would think that somewhere around 700 to 1000 lbs would be about the size needed for the five passenger sedans proposed in PBP. Quick change battery stations? Not practical. This part of the PBP will go by the way side.

Back and forth we go. I guess we will just have to wait and see what PBP delivers. We should see something in 2009.