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At the risk of quoting another "fluff article", plugin hybrids from other manufacturers are selling well and in the case of BMW, outselling EVs (BMW sold twice as many plug-in hybrids as pure EVs in 2018). Some other points in the article:

The current U.S market has 30 plug-in hybrids compared to 14 pure EVs.

The only version of the Honda Clarity that sells across the country is the plug-in hybrid.

Ford promises 40 electrified vehicles by 2022. Only a few will be purely electric.


GM which had arguably one of the best designed and most reliable hybrid platforms in the industry (Voltec technology) and was far ahead of other manufacturers has lost any advantage they had by being first to market.

Making such a radical shift towards exclusively producing EVs is a strategic mistake for GM in my opinion and other manufactures are not making the same mistake. An electric car with a gas backup engine will be required by 60% of the country for a good many years due to lack of charging infrastructure in rural areas and in many smaller towns and cities.

Article: https://insideevs.com/more-plug-in-hybrid-phev-on-the-way/
 

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GM's marketing is clueless unless it's a truck or built on a truck chassis.
 

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It is probably early to end current PHEVs, it's not to not start any. Finished design to production is two to three years (longer if you include design). That far down the road a lot of infrastructure can be built. Although not prairies, here, even the smallest towns have free L2 convenience chargers. I just read an article that the cost of producing wind energy (including building and connecting to grid) has dropped to below 4 cents (Cdn) per Kilowatt and Alberta (the land of oil and gas) plans to have 30% of their electricity by wind power.
 

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Inside EVs said:
The current U.S market has 30 plug-in hybrids compared to 14 pure EVs.
Sounds impressive, but most of that field is pretty weak.

The Volt I have is the only PHEV to date that I found compelling. I did not feel that way about the gen 2. Clarity looks like a styling abortion.

Why do I own this Volt? It isn't to save the planet. That concept is dubious at best anyway. It wasn't because it's a good financial choice. It isn't. It wasn't for any other reason than I enjoy the experience. It's an experience that I can't have with any other vehicle, and the one I have isn't a dorkmobile (the aftermarket wheels had a lot to do with that - wheels really do make the look of the car).

With that said I'll be leaning toward PHEV for my next purchase, and I'll be looking for similar functionality. Too bad ****** Motors has chosen to abandon this type of vehicle but I won't shed any tears over it. I'll be moving forward to my next experience with whomever gets it right, or comes closest to it.

Yes, styling does matter. GM dropped the ball on that too in 2016 IMO. I'm really hoping that Ford does a good job with the Mustang they're teasing. I think I'd really like a Mustang PHEV.
 

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My take is that currently GM is laying low on EV's in general. All they have for the next few years apparently, is the Bolt EV, which they are barely promoting. I think this is largely due to the impending loss of the tax credit.

I think that GM is biding their time while the other companies hit their 200,000 vehicle limit with a combination of PHEV's and BEV's.

Also GM has announced they are shooting for at least 300 miles of range in future EV's. By the time we see them, starting with the Cadillac, charging infrastructure will be better too.

And GM seems wise to first focus on the luxury end of the market with their next gen EV. The lost tax credit will be less of an issue. And in that case, if GM is going to be competing with Tesla, they can hardly do that selling PHEV's.

Making an expensive to produce PHEV and then trying to sell it for a profit without the tax credit, would be difficult. Every other manufacturer of PHEV's will soon have an up to $7500 price advantage over GM.

Many of use mourn the Volt's demise, including myself. However, I can say unequivocally, that in the absence of the $7500 tax credit, my wife would not be driving around in a 2018 Volt as I write this. And I doubt GM could afford to cut the Volt's price by anything close to that amount to compensate. The profit margin is just not there in a PHEV like the Volt.

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Making an expensive to produce PHEV and then trying to sell it for a profit without the tax credit, would be difficult.
GM gains no financial advantage from the federal tax credit or state rebates. That money goes to the buyer. The buyer gains little or nothing net net, but the perception that they do is real.

GM gains a financial advantage from CARB credits. Those are still in place.

Look at what GM does advertise. That's where their focus really is.

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GM gains no financial advantage from the federal tax credit or state rebates. That money goes to the buyer. The buyer gains little or nothing net net, but the perception that they do is real.

GM gains a financial advantage from CARB credits. Those are still in place.

Look at what GM does advertise. That's where their focus really is.

Silverado
Buick CUVs
Cadillac XT4
GM gains a great deal by the tax credit. It means they can actually sell vehicles like the Volt and Bolt EV. GM gets nothing in the form of CARB credits if people don't buy the vehicles that receive those credits.

How many Volt and Bolt EV ownere can honestly say they would have purchased these vehicles in the absence of the tax credits that we received?

I would not have considered buying our 2018 Volt for even 10 seconds. That would have been one less Volt sold, and no CARB credits for GM.

If GM gains no financial advantage from the tax credits, then why are they busy lobbying for an extension of those tax credits?

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GM gains no financial advantage from the federal tax credit or state rebates. That money goes to the buyer. The buyer gains little or nothing net net, but the perception that they do is real.

GM gains a financial advantage from CARB credits. Those are still in place.

Look at what GM does advertise. That's where their focus really is.

Silverado
Buick CUVs
Cadillac XT4
The loss of the credit is huge disadvantage in the mid priced car segment, how can the sell the Volt vs the Clarity when the Clarity is $7500 cheaper to the buyer. On top of that the CARB rules discourage PHEVs vs BEVs, a Bolt is worth much more to GM in CARB credits than a Volt. In addition to the loss of the Federal credit there is also the loss of State rebates for PHEVs. MA no longer give a rebate for PHEVs only for BEVs under $50K, I suspect other states will be following suit.
 

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The loss of the credit is huge disadvantage in the mid priced car segment, how can the sell the Volt vs the Clarity when the Clarity is $7500 cheaper to the buyer. On top of that the CARB rules discourage PHEVs vs BEVs, a Bolt is worth much more to GM in CARB credits than a Volt. In addition to the loss of the Federal credit there is also the loss of State rebates for PHEVs. MA no longer give a rebate for PHEVs only for BEVs under $50K, I suspect other states will be following suit.
I suspect that GM will continue to offer very competitive leases on the Chevrolet Bolt in California and the other CARB states. This skips the problem of losing the federal tax credit. Customer who lease otherwise eligible EV and PHEV vehicles don't receive the tax credit, may not have qualified for the full $7500 tax credit anyway.
 

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GM gains a great deal by the tax credit.
You said:

....and then trying to sell it for a profit without the tax credit, would be difficult.
The tax credit adds no margin to Volt or Bolt sales for GM. If they sell it at a loss, that loss gets bigger with each unit sold. Mark Reuss has said in the past (in a back-handed way) that GM does not make a per-unit profit from these models.
 

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...how can the sell the Volt vs the Clarity when the Clarity is $7500 cheaper to the buyer.
Because the Volt is half as ugly? :rolleyes:

On top of that the CARB rules discourage PHEVs vs BEVs, a Bolt is worth much more to GM in CARB credits than a Volt. In addition to the loss of the Federal credit there is also the loss of State rebates for PHEVs. MA no longer give a rebate for PHEVs only for BEVs under $50K, I suspect other states will be following suit.
Now we're talking turkey. Note that the gen 2 Volt and Bolt only rolled out initially in ZEV states.

Do we see a majority of members here from ZEV states? Why does the southeast have such poor dealer support? Why doesn't GM have national ad campaigns for these cars, given that "the future is electric" according to Barra?
 

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Per unit profits are not the only reason for GM to make these cars. One ZEV credit is worth up to $5K to them, and the Bolt can get up to 4 credits per car, so that alone could make it worthwhile even if they are sold at a substantial loss. They also get to maintain market share, presence and maintain expertise manufacturing in the electrified segment which some year soon will probably dominate the industry and be necessary for their future survival.
 

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Per unit profits are not the only reason for GM to make these cars. One ZEV credit is worth up to $5K to them, and the Bolt can get up to 4 credits per car, so that alone could make it worthwhile even if they are sold at a substantial loss.
Unless they sell too many in Mississippi, and similar states. Then any CARB advantage gets turned on its head.

They also get to maintain market share......
Of a tiny market segment? They don't think like that. If they did they wouldn't be killing their sedan lineup.

....presence and maintain expertise manufacturing in the electrified segment which some year soon will probably dominate the industry and be necessary for their future survival.
So why are they throwing away the Voltec so easily? They just cut their 'presence' in half. Bolt will be the only EV they have for the next coupla few years. That's fine if they want to limit their EV sales to have just enough that they don't take a penalty on what they really market: Light trucks.
 

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You said:



The tax credit adds no margin to Volt or Bolt sales for GM. If they sell it at a loss, that loss gets bigger with each unit sold. Mark Reuss has said in the past (in a back-handed way) that GM does not make a per-unit profit from these models.
Ok. So GM does not make a per unit profit selling the Volt. I can see that with the CARB credits, they can sell the Volt at some loss and still come out ahead.

The price drop required to keep the Volt competitive in the absence of the tax credit may be more loss than GM was willing to absorb. It's perhaps cheaper for GM to buy CARB credits from Tesla than to sell the Volt at such a loss.

GM is in the business of making money, not "saving the world" by selling as many EV's as possible. Market demand for EV's, especially at current gas prices is limited.

Sure Tesla is selling all the EV's they can make, but it's still a small fraction of total vehicle demand. Perhaps Tesla is already satisfying the lions share of demand for EV's, at least at the higher end. Jaguar and others will soon find out. And perhaps even Tesla will run into headwinds once all the pent up demand from reservation holders etc. is met. Will Jaguar etc., create new demand, or just siphon off sales from Tesla?

GM is capitalizing on what the market wants right now. They could stop selling pickup trucks and SUV's tomorrow, but people would not stop buying them. They would buy F150's, and Rams, and so on. GM would just be handing that part of the market to the competition and royally piss off the board and shareholders in the process.

If GM can capitalize on current market demand for SUVs and pickups, and then use a portion of those profits to develop the next gen EV's and also AV's that does not seem unreasonable to me.

GM is doing well right now financially and from what I am reading most analysts believe they are generally making the correct moves to remain profitable even in the event of a downturn.

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Per unit profits are not the only reason for GM to make these cars. One ZEV credit is worth up to $5K to them, and the Bolt can get up to 4 credits per car, so that alone could make it worthwhile even if they are sold at a substantial loss. They also get to maintain market share, presence and maintain expertise manufacturing in the electrified segment which some year soon will probably dominate the industry and be necessary for their future survival.
According to this article from Forbes, the actual market value of the credits may be more like $1600 per credit, not $5k. The $5k is just the penalty amount per credit when a manufacturer does not have enough of them.

In other words, GM can buy CARB/ZEV credits from Tesla for $1600 per. That may be cheaper than generating CARB credits by selling the Volt at what would be a substantial loss in the absence of the $7500 consumer tax credit. And they will continue to produce the Bolt EV so that gives them some credits too of course.

The Forbes article is from 2017. By now CARB credits may even be selling for less than $1600 per. The more EV's that Tesla makes, the more credits they have to sell off. The more other manufacturers produce EV's the fewer credits they need to buy from Tesla. Supply and demand.

I agree that GM is taking a real risk in not maintaining a strong EV presence over the next few years. It will be interesting to see how it pans out for them.

The good news for the consumer of course is we can take our money somehow else if GM does not sell what we want.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/greats...lucrative-zev-credits-may-not-be-sustainable/

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GM gains no financial advantage from the federal tax credit or state rebates. That money goes to the buyer. The buyer gains little or nothing net net, but the perception that they do is real.

GM gains a financial advantage from CARB credits. Those are still in place.

Look at what GM does advertise. That's where their focus really is.

Silverado
Buick CUVs
Cadillac XT4
GM gains profits by jacking up the prices of their BIG vehicles. The BIG vehicles over 6,000 lbs can be deducted in whole. If you have a family "business" registered, you can deduct the whole price of the BIG vehicle... and the total payback in tax savings is much much much more than the puny tax credits for the Volt and the Bolt. So the buyer of BIG Vehicles don't mind the jacked up prices that much knowing that they can deduct it all.

GM should produce EV's or PHEV's that are over 6,000 lbs!
 

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Ok. So GM does not make a per unit profit selling the Volt. I can see that with the CARB credits, they can sell the Volt at some loss and still come out ahead.
If they don't sell too many. Their marketing budget suggests that this is their goal.

We don't really know what their margins are (aren't), only that Reuss said that future EVs would be profitable, implying in a big way that they weren't at that time. I think Reuss is high up enough on the ladder to know the real numbers.

GM is in the business of making money, not "saving the world" by selling as many EV's as possible.
Thanks, that made me laugh. You clearly aren't taking Mary Barra's hype too seriously.

Market demand for EV's, especially at current gas prices is limited.
When gas prices were high it was still limited. The price of fuel is only one of many factors.

If GM can capitalize on current market demand for SUVs and pickups, and then use a portion of those profits to develop the next gen EV's and also AV's that does not seem unreasonable to me.
Or to them. It's hobby money. Remember that GM spent 15 years developing gas turbine engines for passenger cars. That never bore any fruit.

GM is doing well right now financially and from what I am reading most analysts believe they are generally making the correct moves to remain profitable even in the event of a downturn.
Yep, they dumped their low/no-margin sedan production. Volt included.
 

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GM gains profits by jacking up the prices of their BIG vehicles. The BIG vehicles over 6,000 lbs can be deducted in whole. If you have a family "business" registered, you can deduct the whole price of the BIG vehicle... and the total payback in tax savings is much much much more than the puny tax credits for the Volt and the Bolt. So the buyer of BIG Vehicles don't mind the jacked up prices that much knowing that they can deduct it all.

GM should produce EV's or PHEV's that are over 6,000 lbs!
One would do well to know the tax laws before making any assumptions. Furthermore deductions only apply to tax liability and there are limits (which FWICT have been doubled).

New rules and limitations for depreciation and expensing under the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act
What is a Section 179 Deduction?

To be in compliance with the law, detailed mileage records will have to be kept. Travel more than 50% of your miles for other than business purposes and you lose the credit.
 

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The Volt only gets 1.2 ZEV credits, the Bolt 3.9, in dollars that's $6000 for a Volt and $19,500 on the Bolt. GM can afford to absorb the $7500 difference on the Bolt and still come out ahead, on the Volt it's a loss. Besides that the only competition it has for BEVs at the moment is Tesla and Nissan, both of which have exhausted their Federal credits. The Jag, Audi and Porsche compete against the Model S and X not against the Bolt, even with the tax credit they are still more than 2X the price of a Bolt. Honda and Toyota don't have anything that competes with the Bolt. The Hyundai/Kia offering is a direct competitor but it looks like they aren't interested in selling many in the US, it will be in CA only and probably in small numbers.
 

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If I am reading GM exec's comments correctly:
"The Streets of San Francisco" are really hard to navigate.
They still plan on having AVs commercialize in 2019.
They'll figure out how to make money in the AV business later.

Meanwhile, I'm glad I bought my Bolt and have been able to enjoy it for more than a year.
 
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