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Plastic engine

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9.9K views 14 replies 9 participants last post by  Greenman  
#1 ·
More weight and cost savings possibilities? Sounds dubious to me. Whenever I hear someone say they have something that is lower cost and better performance but nobody will use it, I always wonder who in their right mind doesn't want that? Even inept managers at car companies want to make money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/automobiles/25PLASTIC.html?hpw
 
#2 ·
I'm skeptical too, had a 2005 Dodge Cummins truck where someone decided to fabricate the intercooler using plastic: bad idea, it blew apart from heat, covered under warranty, the replacement part was made of metal.
 
#3 ·
Don't be sceptical. Sometimes, it just takes time.

In1972, Chevy came out with the Vega, and had a radically-new aluminum-block engine. Everyone said that you couldn't make an engine out of aluminum - it would warp and break down faster than an iron block. And, you know, they were right! The aluminum-block Vega was a disaster, and Chevy had to go back to iron blocks.

Fast forward to 2009, and 85% of the engine blocks made in the US are aluminum-block engines. It took 37 years, but they finally got the bugs out of the process.

I sincerely hope that we don't have internal combustion engines in our cars 37 years from now. But if we do, I wouldnt be surprised if they were made from plastic.
 
#5 ·
In1972, Chevy came out with the Vega, and had a radically-new aluminum-block engine. Everyone said that you couldn't make an engine out of aluminum - it would warp and break down faster than an iron block. And, you know, they were right! The aluminum-block Vega was a disaster, and Chevy had to go back to iron blocks.

Fast forward to 2009, and 85% of the engine blocks made in the US are aluminum-block engines. It took 37 years, but they finally got the bugs out of the process.
A little history correction. The Vega debuted in 1971 and it featured an aluminum silicone engine block. It was not anywhere near the first aluminum blocked engine, that dates back to the 20's. GM actually perfected the aluminum engine back in '62 when they introduced the Buick Special/Skylark, Pontiac Jetfire/Tempest and Oldsmobile F-85/Cutlass (one of my all time personal favorites) with the 215 cu inch aluminum V8. Light, strong and powerful for it's time. The engine was so successful that when GM retired it, they sold the rights to it to British Leyland in 1965, it continued to power their Land Rover SUVs and sedans well into the 1990's. GM got rid of it because it was too small for the horsepower wars and it was expensive to produce.

On a side note, I used to own a 1962 Dodge Lancer with an aluminum I6 in it. So GM was not the only one doing aluminum engines. It was wonderful and light handling, however the head gasket failed on me and I discovered the reason why when I pulled the head (in those days I did a lot of wrenching, these days I pay people) The aluminum had failed around the steel cylinder sleeve due to electrolysis, a common problem in the 60's. People were just used to pouring plain water in the radiator in those days and this practice is death for an aluminum engine. It causes the aluminum closest to the spark plugs to dissolve and redeposit elsewhere in the engine closest to the ground strap. Today's antifreeze solves this problem. In my case, it had failed, somebody pulled the head, put something like JB weld epoxy in the void instead of a proper weld and re-machine and put it back together with a for sale sign on it. Buyer be very aware in the old car business! For the reason of electrolysis problem, the warranty issues made GM, Chrysler and others seriously reconsider aluminum engines until buyers became more technically savvy.

Back to the Vega, a car I also owned and loved. What was different about the Vega's engine was not that it was made of aluminum, but that it was made of an aluminum silicone alloy. The silicone was supposed to give sufficient wear protection and so the expensive process of sleeving an aluminum bore with a steel jacket was removed and the engine was a bit lighter. All aluminum blocked engines prior and since have always had to be cast, bored out, a precisely machined steel sleeve pressed in and then re-machined. GM thought they could cut out this process by changing the aluminum alloy and therefore make aluminum engines almost as cheaply as cast iron engines.

Why did they think this would work? Because that's how race car engines were made. They had been racing aluminum silicone engines for a long time without failure. They thought that if it was good enough to go hundreds of laps at 10,000 RPM, surely it would be good enough to go to the grocery store. Turns out, everyday driving in the hands of amateur drivers is tougher on an engine than racing. The typical Vega engine lasted between 65,000 to 75,000 miles before it was shot. Mine started to go at about 55,000 and I sold it before I had to deal with it.

They continued to make Vegas with aluminum engines, but around I think 1974 or '75 they started putting the steel sleeves in and solved the problem. The engines lived beyond the Vega and were also found in the Monzas and the other GM divisions version of the Monza until 1982 when the line was replaced with the first Cavaliers.

So it wasn't that the engines were made of aluminum, just that they didn't have the steel linings and they didn't go back to iron blocks. The Vega's other major weak point was that GM cheaped out on the metal prep prior to painting to save money. The result was the body rusted out rapidly. In snowy areas, this meant the car had huge holes in the fenders right around the time the engine was really smoking and as a result, the Chevy Vega is a very scarce car today. The few that one encounters today, are usually hot rods. A popular conversion in the '70s and '80s was to drop in a small block V8. There were kits to do it and it was easy. Some of these cars survived. The V8 conversion made the car go like stink in a straight line, but ruined the handling. A better conversion was to put the V6 from the Monza in, but few people opted for this.

Ultimately, the Vega sold in large numbers and GM made a profit on all of them except the Cosworth version. However, the damage to GM's reputation was done and started the long decline to where we find ourselves today. The short comings of the Vega and Ford's Pinto, opened the door to imports like Toyota, Honda and Datsun. The management at GM at the time never took these upstarts serious enough and well, the rest is history.
 
#6 ·
Very informative. Thanks Dav8or. I love posts like that. I saw this video posted on the homepage a while ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nppKMomMP-4

It's 1984 (the year I was born) and Chrysler was already feeling the pinch from the Japanese auto makers? Iacocca promises a car that could compete with the Japanese. That was 25 years ago. I never realized there was a such a discrepancy in reliability all the way back then that was large enough that Iacocca felt it was already common knowledge enough to address on a TV commercial. That was obviously in the wake of the cars you mentioned in your history lesson.

It's too bad Roger Smith didn't buy stake in Toyota back then (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em). Instead he just moved GMs vehicle production to Mexico and started the long process of outsourcing American jobs. I hope our entire country doesn't end up looking like Detroit.

My sister has a Mexican room mate who tells us never to buy a car that was made in Mexico. Maybe that's her perception, but supposedly she's gotten a couple of lemon VWs that were made in Mexico and the German made ones were great.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Good post DaV8or, the Vega was a revolutionary car.. the Volt moonshot of its day. Does anyone know how the rust problem was solved by all the manufacturers?.. it was something that all 70s cars suffered from.

The Vega engine aluminum alloy is very special.. it has little particles of hard silicon metal distributed all over.. once the block is cast they then etch the bore with acid, this eats away some of the aluminum leaving behind a very hard porous surface.. this porous surface retains oil.. the same thing is accomplished in an iron engine by "crosshatching" the surface. They did sleeve some of the engines under warranty but that was not how the problems were eventually solved.

I dont remember all the details but the problem with the Vega had something to do with the intake coolant level of the radiator and the way that coolant circulated (an air pocket could form).. and if the engine overheated even once then you would get a leak in the head gasket. It probably did not help that the head was made of steel and expanded at a different rate as the aluminum core. The problems were eventually solved but the damage had been done to GM by then.

Back in the day, a friend and I bought 10 Vegas from a local pest control company.. horrible chemical stench. We cleaned them up well and resold them at a profit.. we had to remove all the carpets so that soap, sun and air would get rid of the smell. All these cars ran very well. The backyard looked like a junkyard with piles of tires all over :)
 
#10 ·
We had a guy at Allied Signal that had a vega w/ an aluminum block V8. The license plate read "Aluminate". I can remember writing a report for english class about the new Pontiac Tempest I6 w/ overhead cam driven by a new and revolutionary cogged belt! Anybody remember the Tempest with a slant 4?? I think it was a v8 w/ half the cylinders cut off.

Those were the days! Thanks for memories DaV8or.
 
#13 ·
Had One



Yes, our family had a used Tempest slant 4 (half a v8). It had a 3-speed column shift that had a linkage problem. It would get stuck in 2nd gear and the only way to get it back on track was to get on your back underneath it and do a manual shift. Starting in 2nd, being limited to 2nd gear speed, and not having reverse wasn't much fun.

This was fine when I was out with the guys. On prom night, not so much. If I had a sledge hammer with me, it would have been a spectacular sight, worthy of YouTube.
 
#11 · (Edited)
“GM actually perfected the aluminum engine back in '62 when they introduced the Buick Special/Skylark… “ – DaV8or

Perfected? My 62 Buick Special had severe radiator clogging problem caused by some kind of chemical reaction between aluminum and engine coolant (?). Also, it suffered from chronic oil and transmission fluid leaks. At that time there were no company-directed recalls and users were hopeless victims.
 
#14 ·
I had an '85 Audi 4000s. Very rare cars. Every once in a while the linkage on the throttle would fall off. What great fun! Then the door handles never worked. I can sympathize with your prom night embarrassment as I was in college and my dates had to either climb over the drivers seat to get to the passenger side or sit in the back. I tried fixing the handle myself and it ended up being a nightmare job trying to get all the linkage and lock stuff back together through a 5 inch square hole in the solid metal door, sitting on 6 inches of ice in the parking lot in the dead of Utah winter (rarely gets above freezing even at noon). It took me weeks to fix in between homework, class and tests.