[Texas]

Is this the end of Altair and their nano titanate NanoSafe lithium-ion technology? I hope not because the technology seemed quite impressive, especially the 10 minute re-charge ability. Here is the news item:

"MISSISSAUGA, ONTARIO, May 6, 2008 (Marketwire via COMTEX News Network) ----Electrovaya Inc. (TSX:EFL) ("Electrovaya") today announced it is negotiating a purchase and supply agreement and has begun work on a battery pack design and production program with Phoenix Motorcars, a California-based electric vehicle manufacturer. This project includes certain upfront engineering design services and hardware production. Electrovaya has received payment in advance for a substantial portion of this work....

These battery systems will feature Electrovaya's proprietary Lithium Ion SuperPolymer(R ) battery technology and integrated intelligent battery management system ("iBMS"). Phoenix Motorcars will develop and manufacture the vehicles at its facility in Ontario, California."


http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/ma...-design-production-program-phoenix-motorcars/


If true it will probably push the release date of the SUVs and SUTs out a bit. Like a few years... Anyone hear any other news on this?

 

[Dave B]

I read the same over at autoblooggreen yesterday...sucks.

Although I think it was stupid to not have a back-up battery supplier. Tesla ran in to the same problem with the drivetrain and ultimately ended up with 3 different suppliers (I think). Something as vital as the pack should have been shopped around to a competent supplier. A123 and Enerdel (however you spell that) can obviously perform, inter alia.

This may kill Phoenix, and if I were one of the initial investors, I'd be pissed.

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

I read that article yesterday, and wondered the same thing. Since they completely omitted news of Altairnano, it doesn't bode well.

Altairnano's previous CEO spent too much time giving lectures and interviews (a common flaw in the "green" industries), instead of locking down substantive partnerships and delivering product. I was hoping their new CEO would help Altairnano make a significant leap forward.

 

[pennor1]

PLEASE, somebody tell me how you have all made the leap from reading about a contract agreement to supply batteries to the assumption that Pheonix is in trouble. I read that article twice and it sounded like progress to me.

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

PLEASE, somebody tell me how you have all made the leap from reading about a contract agreement to supply batteries to the assumption that Pheonix is in trouble. I read that article twice and it sounded like progress to me.

It is a leap for those who've made it, but not an unreasonable one. I only think that Altairnano may be in trouble.

Phoenix did have trouble driving to an appearance in one of their own vehicles the other day, but they didn't report why the truck ended up dead on the side of the road.

 

[hvacman]

Like some others on this thread, I'm just catching up on what the heck Altair is.

Other than quick-charge capability and great power density, I don't see how their technology would be a major benefit for the near-term BEV market. The specific energy density shown on their own charts about matches current NiMH and is less than half that of current conventional LI technology.

With their 4x power density, they look like they would be a great niche market for the BEV racing crowd, but forget the possibility of 100 miles between charges.

They make the case for ultra-long life and safety, but it appears that the cycle duty and thermal management of the current batch of LI battery packs coming out of may be "good enough" for mainstream automotive use. "Good enough" usually trumps "optimal" in the real world.

Maybe the thought was that they could overcome the energy density issue with further research, but without 2x better energy density now, I can't picture any major BEV manufacturer locking into their technology. Not surprised Phoenix jumped ship.

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

hvacman,

Rapid recharge is a very big deal for some buyers, commercial and personal. These were intended to be fleet vehicles, which would return frequently to home base for rapid recharge (food / flower delivery, etc.). It does have a market, and could be the cornerstone of long range BEV's with rapid recharge capability.

How are you measuring energy density? by weight or volume? NiMH are very heavy, so I would be surprised if Altairnano's specific energy is anywhere near NiMH.

 

[Dave B]

It is a leap for those who've made it, but not an unreasonable one. I only think that Altairnano may be in trouble.

Phoenix did have trouble driving to an appearance in one of their own vehicles the other day, but they didn't report why the truck ended up dead on the side of the road.

Phoenix has been delayed Year after Year, and investors have to be getting edgy. I can't give you dates, but it has got to put serious pressure on start-ups, to be delayed by years. Look at cash flow alone. And the last press release of Phoenix suggested Altair was THE technology and it was performing as promised. As a possible customer, that doesn't give me confidence.

 

[drivin98]

The other great thing about the Altairnano battery is the incredibly long cycle life. They have lots of pokers in the fire besides Phoenix and other potential apps besides ldv's. They have a multi-million $$ contract with the Navy which could easily turn into billions over the longer term.
Vehicle wise they are in talks with different hybrid manufacturers including a bus maker. If they give up the ghost it will be due to management and not product.

Phoenix SHOULD begin to deliver trucks in the month of June which PROBABLY are Altairnano equipped. Hopefully the Electrovaya deal will help them with their price point down the road.

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

All these super capacitor and battery manufacturers seem to have contracts with the DOE and DOD - we may see our government go green faster than the private sector.

 

[MetrologyFirst]

Yep, almost all the gov't owned vehicle at our place are small electrics or run on natural gas. But they never get off the site though. I just hope the gov't can keep supporting this research in the future. At least it's a better use of money than alot of other programs.

I just hope to manage a deal to allow me to plug the Volt in during work hours. I am already looking into it and sending emails, have to start way early with these people. I think they might go for a small portable metering system.

The gov't has their faults, but early adopting new tech is rarely one of them.

 

[Koz]

Phoenix is late by months, not years at this point. Specific energy is a weakness of Altair's technology and I think HVACMAN is accurate. The less than 10 minute recharge is the golden goose for them in the form of golden carb credits. Those credits are traded now and have significant value, allowing Phoenix to sell fast charge BEV's at an affordable price and still sell profitably. The best market for their product is the localized fleet vehicle market, but with their projected range of 130+ miles and carb subsidized price they should be able to manage some consumer sales. Their initial strategy is dependent on the credits. I believe the Electrovaya might be a backup plan or a lower cost, longer recharge, lower credit 2nd generation plan.