GM Volt Forum banner

21 - 40 of 118 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,197 Posts
I didn't see it as a joke nor, like Bill said, was there any indication that it was such.

That said I have several relatives who live in the mountains where cell services is unavailable. According to you these people are fools for continuing to use a landline phone instead of a $1K smart phone. According to many on this site when they need to make a phone call they should jump in the car and go to a location where cell coverage is available, make their call, and then drive home when they're done. Have an incoming call? You'll just have to wait until you go somewhere where there is cell coverage and you can check your voicemail and call them back. Heaven forbid they should use an inexpensive landline that does what they need without all the hassle that comes from using a smart phone.
And this is at the core of sooooooooo many of your disagreements with others here that I've seen. Your entire perception of the barriers to adoption for EV (and now, apparently, cell phones) as primary use resources is steeped in the ideas that since you know a couple of people for whom that answer isn't suitable, that those people aren't just vanishingly rare edge cases and instead represent common experience, and you can never seem to step out of that. MOST PEOPLE don't live on mountains where there's no cell service, they live in cities and suburbs or within a dozen miles of a freakin' interstate and therefore have cell coverage. MOST PEOPLE don't charge EVs from empty to full. They either charge at home and fill up from their daily travel, or ... MOST PEOPLE that don't have places that they can charge at home ALSO don't live very far from a DCFC. See also "most people live in cities". Cities are also where most of the mult-unit dwellings are. Most cities have some DCFC. Even Des Moines has four. Join the gym near one instead of the the gym near home, or make the grocery store across the parking lot the one you shop at instead and it's suddenly not even time spent waiting, it's time spent doing other things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
And this is at the core of sooooooooo many of your disagreements with others here that I've seen. Your entire perception of the barriers to adoption for EV (and now, apparently, cell phones) as primary use resources is steeped in the ideas that since you know a couple of people for whom that answer isn't suitable, that those people aren't just vanishingly rare edge cases and instead represent common experience, and you can never seem to step out of that. MOST PEOPLE don't live on mountains where there's no cell service, they live in cities and suburbs or within a dozen miles of a freakin' interstate and therefore have cell coverage. MOST PEOPLE don't charge EVs from empty to full. They either charge at home and fill up from their daily travel, or ... MOST PEOPLE that don't have places that they can charge at home ALSO don't live very far from a DCFC. See also "most people live in cities". Cities are also where most of the mult-unit dwellings are. Most cities have some DCFC. Even Des Moines has four. Join the gym near one instead of the the gym near home, or make the grocery store across the parking lot the one you shop at instead and it's suddenly not even time spent waiting, it's time spent doing other things.
People living in the mountains are not vanishingly rare edge cases. Here in Colorado there are quite a lot of people who live in the mountains.

Greenies act as if there are no situations where an EV is impractical. For every reason given they find some way, usually inconvenient or at additional (some times substantial) cost to "overcome" it. Live in an apartment where charging is not possible? Greenie answer: Go sit at a public charging station for an hour or so or move. Live in a condo where charging is not possible? Greenie answer: Go sit at a public charging station for an hour or so or move. Live in an older home where power may not be plentiful? Greenie answer: Go sit at a public charging station for an hour or so or move. Make trips that exceed the range of your EV? Greenie answer: Go sit at a public charging station for an hour or so. Have an emergency? Better hope your EV is charged.

It's not as if these people were speculating as to why an EV wouldn't work for them. They lived with an EV day in and day our and, at the end of the day, concluded for their needs an EV wasn't practical. Yet here we have a bunch of people who know what's better for them than they do.

I am merely the messenger attempting to explain the issues I see to wide spread EV adoption. It appears my opinions have basis in fact (as this survey shows). You can argue against it all you want but doing so will not eliminate these reasons. So instead of telling people how wrong they are perhaps you can suggest practical ways to overcome them. Don't you think that would be more constructive? It would also make greenies a lot less annoying to non-greenies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,797 Posts
Which cars would those be?
Those cars are the ones that can use the 350 Kwh chargers to full capacity, Porsche etc.


Long distance models:
  • Cost more. Yes they do and your point is?
  • Still require charging (and take longer to do so because they have larger batteries). The larger the battery the faster they can take a charge (Kwh/minute) all other things being equal because of better heat dissipation plus they generally have higher capacity charging systems with better cooling systems.
  • Do not have the range of your entry level ICE car. They have a longer range than any of the ICE cars I have owned in the last 50 years.


That's what people are doing. But for some reason they're being labelled as anti-green.


Why should they have to buy used when they can afford a new ICE vehicle?
Why do you need to have a new car? I've only had two in the last 57 years of car ownership.

What if there's no public transportation (I assume you mean mass transit public transportation). I live in the country and have mass public transportation. Where the heck do you live?


Of course you don't because you expect people to adjust their life to a technology which isn't ready for their needs. So much arrogance in your post. I expect them to live in the 21st century. That's not arrogance. That's a requirement of life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,374 Posts
AMOST PEOPLE don't charge EVs from empty to full. They either charge at home and fill up from their daily travel, or ... MOST PEOPLE that don't have places that they can charge at home ALSO don't live very far from a DCFC. See also "most people live in cities". Cities are also where most of the mult-unit dwellings are. Most cities have some DCFC. Even Des Moines has four. Join the gym near one instead of the the gym near home, or make the grocery store across the parking lot the one you shop at instead and it's suddenly not even time spent waiting, it's time spent doing other things.
So much unreality in this statement.

  • Only one third of Americans live in single family dwellings. The other 200+ million will be dependent on public or semi-public (apartment complexes for example) charging.
  • Of those living in single family dwellings, a large percentage are renting, so they have to get the property owner to install the circuit needed for a high amperage L2 charger.
  • Four DCFC chargers in Des Moines and how many gas pumps? BEVs are a serious disadvantage. Most other cities are in a similar situation.
  • Time to DCFC charge current BEVs is way too long. This will change as more 400V and higher charging systems come online and BEVs are equipped to handle them.
  • Expecting people to change their behavior to adopt new technology only works if the new technology simplifies their lives. Cell phones were making respectable, but moderate penetration into the market prior to the original iPhone. Then they took off because of the huge perceived benefits of having a connected computer in your pocket. Telling people to join the gym across town because it has DCFC charging is a non-starter, especially since many business owned charging stations are either always in use or don't work.
  • Making the assumption that property owners will install charging stations just to get business is a non-starter. Between permitting, electrical code, physical construction costs, and the actual electrical cabling required, commercial charging stations run in the 10s of thousands of dollars for each charge plug. L2 chargers are cheaper but not by much. This goes for existing apartment and other multi-family dwelling complexes, as well.
It will take time to convince people they don't need to charge to full, but that's a change most people will be able to make. On some current BEVs, it takes as long to charge from 80% to 100% as it does from 10% to 80%. People will figure this out and adjust their charging habits to reduce the time waiting for their car to charge - again this is about convenience.

I also saw a valid comment earlier in this thread about entry level ICEVs having more range than current BEVs. I looked a few months ago and there are three entry level ICEVs (<$17,000 starting MSRP) that can all travel 350 or more miles on a tank of gas. BEVs need to be in this price range and have a 300 mile (80% -> 10% state of charge) winter range in suburban and urban driving around our northern cities, including those in Alaska. They'll also need to recharge to 80% in less than 20 minutes. This will match the once a week refueling experience that many people do with their ICEVs. Remember the statistic - 200+ million people in the US don't live in single family dwellings so can't just plug in when they get home. The "always full in the morning" argument falls on deaf ears for these people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlzm and volty25

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,797 Posts
If you do a search, 77% of Americans live in detached homes i.e. single family homes, attached (duplexes etc.) or mobile home (were charging at least on 110V is available). Another site says 70% so it's around there.

Canada's numbers are about the same. Single family dwelling include Detached housing, duplexes, triplexes, etc. which have outside plugs. These are usually dedicated plugs that have ground fault either at the outlet or the junction box.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
I'm in Saskatchewan and in the country there is no mass transit. (Side note, I just got back from a drive up north and in a 550km trip, I had no cell service for 300km, on the main highway for the area). We are also short on DCFC and even Level 2 charging anywhere away from the Trans Canada.

Which is just to say you don't have to go to Tuktoyaktuk to find yourself out of the reach of mass transit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
I'm not one of the twenty percent who want to switch back to gas.

I have a Volt and prefer to drive it on electric. The Model 3 and the Bolt were just becoming available when I bought the 18 Volt, and I felt the charging infrastructure was too weak for me to commit to a BEV at that time. That has changed as more DC fast chargers are along major routes now. I am planning to buy BEVs going forward when possible. Looks like by 2025 it will be possible to select a BEV in most forms, van, pickup, sedan, SUV.

I agree that there are locations that do not have BEV infrastructure, and I don't mind people speaking out about it. That's how problems are isolated so that they can be solved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
My next car will also likely be a BEV, despite being in a backwoods province. Last November we got a once-in-a-decade blizzard that rendered our cars useless on residential streets, with a foot of heavy wet snow accumulated. My solution was to rent a Jeep for a couple of days until the streets were clear. 999 days out of 1000, my Volt is perfectly suited to my needs, and the gas savings (vs owning a Jeep) more than paid for the rental.

I have no desire currently to give up the Volt, but when I do replace it a BEV will do the trick 99% of the time, and renting a car (or driving my partner's Volt) will cover the other 1%.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,374 Posts
If you do a search, 77% of Americans live in detached homes i.e. single family homes, attached (duplexes etc.) or mobile home (were charging at least on 110V is available). Another site says 70% so it's around there.

Canada's numbers are about the same. Single family dwelling include Detached housing, duplexes, triplexes, etc. which have outside plugs. These are usually dedicated plugs that have ground fault either at the outlet or the junction box.
110v charging tops out at about 5 miles per hour of charging. Get home at 6:30 PM and leave the next morning at 7:30 and you will get at most 65 miles of charging. For about 95% of the workforce this will cover their daily driving needs. It won't cover everyone, nor will it cover any weekend travel.

Now for those living in attached/duplex homes. These properties almost always have "street" parking, requiring an extension cord which creates a tripping hazard for everyone. This isn't a solution.
 
  • Like
Reactions: volty25

·
Registered
16,17 volt
Joined
·
1,036 Posts
I'm in Saskatchewan and in the country there is no mass transit. (Side note, I just got back from a drive up north and in a 550km trip, I had no cell service for 300km, on the main highway for the area). We are also short on DCFC and even Level 2 charging anywhere away from the Trans Canada.

Which is just to say you don't have to go to Tuktoyaktuk to find yourself out of the reach of mass transit.
Tuktoyaktuk- spent 2 weeks there fixing stuff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
867 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Study: "Of those who switched, over 70% lacked access to Level 2 charging at home, and slightly fewer than that lacked Level 2 connections at their workplace."

If they bought an EV and did not think about how to charge it, yes, they were very uniformed buyers. They should have bought a Volt or other PHEV which eliminates the issue.
There are possible reasons for the behavior you call "uninformed" (buying an EV and not having 240 V charging at home):

1. You installed a 240 V charger at home for your EV, but your life circumstances changed and you moved to a condo or apartment where 240 V is not available.

2. You had access to 240 V charging at work, but you changed jobs and it's no longer available. (Someone I know has had an EV for many years and never once charged it at home, because he gets free charging at work.)

3. You had access to a 120 V charger when you bought the EV or PHEV, thinking you would not need more than that given the way you use your car (maybe you're retired and just need it for short trips to town). Then your circumstances change and you're driving longer distances - so now you need 240 V charging, but all you have access to is 120 V.

4. You live in California and bought a PHEV in order to get the carpool lane pass - but you had no intention of actually ever charging the vehicle. (Yes, this was a thing a few years ago.) Now you no longer need the carpool lane pass and you'd prefer a different kind of car.

I think the above situations are common enough (well, maybe except for #4) that they could explain much of that 20%. In many cases it may be possible to work around the problem by using public chargers, but it's easy to see why people would find those inconvenient for the vehicle they own compared to getting rid of it and buying an ICE vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
If you do a search, 77% of Americans live in detached homes i.e. single family homes, attached (duplexes etc.) or mobile home (were charging at least on 110V is available). Another site says 70% so it's around there.

Canada's numbers are about the same. Single family dwelling include Detached housing, duplexes, triplexes, etc. which have outside plugs. These are usually dedicated plugs that have ground fault either at the outlet or the junction box.
It's your responsibility to provide the references you used to obtain this information.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
I'm not one of the twenty percent who want to switch back to gas.

I have a Volt and prefer to drive it on electric. The Model 3 and the Bolt were just becoming available when I bought the 18 Volt, and I felt the charging infrastructure was too weak for me to commit to a BEV at that time. That has changed as more DC fast chargers are along major routes now. I am planning to buy BEVs going forward when possible. Looks like by 2025 it will be possible to select a BEV in most forms, van, pickup, sedan, SUV.

I agree that there are locations that do not have BEV infrastructure, and I don't mind people speaking out about it. That's how problems are isolated so that they can be solved.
IMO lack of charging infrastructure is part of the problem. The other is, even with DC fast charging it takes considerably longer to refuel an EV. Especially since the fastest charging rates are unsustainable for the duration of the recharge. People like to quote phrases such as "Adds about 90 miles in 30 minutes" but then charging speed begins to slow down as the battery charges. So how long does it take to charge the remaining 150 miles (I see things to the effect of 80% of total capacity in approximately an hour). Meanwhile in an ICE vehicle I can add 100%, which typically translates into over 400 miles per tank, in 10 minutes.

The 350KwH mega chargers mentioned earlier sound great except there are no production vehicle that can accept that charge rate and those that are planned to are affordable only by those who can afford high end vehicles. Any 350KwH response to slow charging times is, at this point in time, worthless.

IMO range isn't an issue if refueling an EV took 10 minutes as it does with an ICE vehicle. It is, IMO, one of the top issues the industry needs to address before EV technology is adopted by the masses. I am absolutely amazed how much push back I've received on this. Especially in a discussion where a respondents to a study made this very point (and supported it by going back to ICE).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
There are possible reasons for the behavior you call "uninformed" (buying an EV and not having 240 V charging at home):

1. You installed a 240 V charger at home for your EV, but your life circumstances changed and you moved to a condo or apartment where 240 V is not available.

2. You had access to 240 V charging at work, but you changed jobs and it's no longer available. (Someone I know has had an EV for many years and never once charged it at home, because he gets free charging at work.)
Or, due to a pandemic, are now working from home full time.
3. You had access to a 120 V charger when you bought the EV or PHEV, thinking you would not need more than that given the way you use your car (maybe you're retired and just need it for short trips to town). Then your circumstances change and you're driving longer distances - so now you need 240 V charging, but all you have access to is 120 V.

4. You live in California and bought a PHEV in order to get the carpool lane pass - but you had no intention of actually ever charging the vehicle. (Yes, this was a thing a few years ago.) Now you no longer need the carpool lane pass and you'd prefer a different kind of car.

I think the above situations are common enough (well, maybe except for #4) that they could explain much of that 20%. In many cases it may be possible to work around the problem by using public chargers, but it's easy to see why people would find those inconvenient for the vehicle they own compared to getting rid of it and buying an ICE vehicle.
IMO it doesn't advance the EV cause by labelling people uninformed. Consumers are informed and have concluded EV technology doesn't work for them. At least not today. Greenies are under the misguided impression that people are just anti-EV technology. I'm sure there are but everyone who has ridden or driven my Volt has been very impressed with it. Greenies think they know someone's situation better than they do and attempt to force compromises on people. I have no doubt EV will overcome these limitations and at some point we'll primarily be using EV vehicles. However it's not there yet and the greenies should recognize as much instead of being critical of people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,374 Posts
It's your responsibility to provide the references you used to obtain this information.
I can believe the statistic reported, but it doesn't reflect the reality that the vast majority of those condos/duplexes don't have driveways but share "on-street" parking where there are no outlets. Also, the stated concept that 110V charging is sufficient is obviously false.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,197 Posts
People living in the mountains are not vanishingly rare edge cases. Here in Colorado there are quite a lot of people who live in the mountains.
Over 85% of the people that live in Colorado live in urbanized areas, areas around cities with a population of 50,000 or more. That's 15% above the national average. Urban Percentage of the Population for States, Historical | Iowa Community Indicators Program Where does "rare" start in your opinion?

Greenies act as if there are no situations where an EV is impractical.
NO! "Greenies" say those situations are RARE. Stop being blinkered absolutist.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,374 Posts
Over 85% of the people that live in Colorado live in urbanized areas, areas around cities with a population of 50,000 or more. That's 15% above the national average. Urban Percentage of the Population for States, Historical | Iowa Community Indicators Program Where does "rare" start in your opinion?


NO! "Greenies" say those situations are RARE. Stop being blinkered absolutist.
"Greenies" ignore the fact that a significant number of people live outside cities. Their arguments are all based on what they see in the cities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: volty25

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
I can believe the statistic reported, but it doesn't reflect the reality that the vast majority of those condos/duplexes don't have driveways but share "on-street" parking where there are no outlets. Also, the stated concept that 110V charging is sufficient is obviously false.
I ask so that I know exactly what they read so I can better address it. I refuse to form a rebuttle to something I have not seen myself.
 
21 - 40 of 118 Posts
Top