[Shivetya]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/...r-toward-traffic-barrier-before-deadly-crash/

Pretty much open and shut.

Oh don't even bring up the hands not being on the wheel, Tesla still has a picture of just that on the landing page for autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

 

[Guest]

Not its fault, it didn't see any brake lights come on in the traffic barrier.....

 

[scottf200]

Full NTSB report here: https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/tesla-fatal-crash-autopilot-ntsb-releases-preliminary-report/

The NTSB corroborated the sequences of events leading to the crash with its own review of the recorded performance data:

• The Autopilot system was engaged on four separate occasions during the 32-minute trip, including a continuous operation for the last 18 minutes 55 seconds prior to the crash.
• During the 18-minute 55-second segment, the vehicle provided two visual alerts and one auditory alert for the driver to place his hands on the steering wheel. These alerts were made more than 15 minutes prior to the crash.
• During the 60 seconds prior to the crash, the driver’s hands were detected on the steering wheel on three separate occasions, for a total of 34 seconds; for the last 6 seconds prior to the crash, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the steering wheel.
• At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph.
• At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle.
• At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle.
• At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increased from 62 to 70.8 mph, with no precrash braking or evasive steering movement detected. [adaptive cruise control was set to 75 mph]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/ntsb-autopilot-steered-tesla-car-toward-traffic-barrier-before-deadly-crash/

Pretty much open and shut.

Irresponsible driver most people would conclude. EVERY time AutoPilot/AutoSteer is ENGAGE the DRIVER is told explicitly to ALWAYS keep your hands on the wheel. He made a personal choice not to. He drove that road many times before according to many reports and claimed to have had issues in that area BUT still, he made the choice not to drive with his hands on the wheel. His personal choice.

Obviously, people choose to do things on their phone, makeup, eat, attend to kids, etc, etc. They make personal choices.

Huang's hands were detected on the steering wheel for 34 seconds out of the final [60 seconds] of his trip.

His hands were not detected on the steering wheel for the final six seconds prior to the crash.

What is unclear about the below message? 'Always' means all the time not some of the time.

Also part of msg: 'Be prepared to take over at any time.' (GM Supercruise manual is clear on this as well.)

 

[srmarti]

Article mentions Tesla's comment that the damaged crash arrester contributed to the severity of the accident. That's true, but unless Tesla is going to say the car hit the crash arrester because it was damaged, it's not relevant. Nobody wants their car to steer into a barrier at 70 mph regardless of it's state of repair.


IIRC the character of the driver is a question mark. A tech-savy person that was a aware of and complained about the auto-pilot regularly failing to work on certain highway sections, but still he didn't pay close enough attention to avoid a fatal collision.

 

[scottf200]

...
IIRC the character of the driver is a question mark. A tech-savy person that was a aware of and complained about the auto-pilot regularly failing to work on certain highway sections, but still he didn't pay close enough attention to avoid a fatal collision.l

http://abc7news.com/automotive/i-te...crash-had-complained-about-autopilot/3275600/

Dan Noyes also spoke and texted with Walter Huang's brother, Will, today. He confirmed Walter was on the way to work at Apple when he died.

He also makes a startling claim -- that before the crash, Walter complained "7-10 times the car would swivel toward that same exact barrier during Autopilot. Walter took it into dealership addressing the issue, but they couldn't duplicate it there."

So if the above is true he still made the choice to use AutoPilot on that area. His personal choice but not one most people would make I don't think.

 

[scottf200]

Supercruise is clear on all this as well.

https://www.cadillac.com/content/da.../2018-cad-ct6-supercruise-personalization.pdf

 

[Steverino]

He's at fault. He turned on Autopilot.

But I think it should have a turn on sound with Dirty Harry saying, "Do you feel lucky, punk?" or maybe, "Yippee! Let's roll the dice!", or maybe, "Is your life insurance up to date?"

 

[dannycamps]

So now I have to ask: if the driver is expected to keep their hands on the wheel at all times and maintain control of the car, exactly what is the purpose of the autopilot system? If it's simply an ACC then it should be called as such.

I still feel the purpose of the autopilot system should be to guide the car safely to a stop if the driver has an event and is unable to maintain control of the car.

 

[Sheldon]

...

• At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph
• ... At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle.
• At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increased from 62 to 70.8 mph, with no precrash braking or evasive steering movement detected. [adaptive cruise control was set to 75 mph]

The same thing happens on ACC with my gen2 Volt where the Volt annoyingly accelerates sometimes when the car in front of you changes lanes. For example, if the ACC cruise control is set at 75mph and the Volt is going 62mph... At least with the Volt, you always have your hands on the wheel, since LKA (lane keep assist) is more of a warning/tug on steering wheel rather than full auto-steering. With ACC, the driver is always paying enough attention to steer, so the driver is always ready to tap on the brakes and/or disable the cruise control.

Maybe ACC with limited LKA is safer than Tesla's auto pilot.

 

[BAZINGA]

If you have ACC it will accelerate if the road in front of you clears and the radar no longer see's the vehicle in front of you that you were pacing. I usually set ACC 5 to 10 MPH over the posted speed limit so if I'm following someone and want to over take them all I do is singal and move into the left/passing lane and the car swiftly accelerates. Then I pull back into the right lane and the ACC will read vehicles and adjust my speed accordingly. This is particularly annoying and dangerous if you are in the slower right lane as you approach an exit or turn. But as always the driver must intervene. The DRIVER is responsible.

One thing I didn't see in the Tesla accident was the owners phone records. Was he on his phone during this critical portion of his drive and failed to notice and act when AP got confused?

I'd say the fault for this is at a minimum split three ways. But I still contend the operator is still the entity responsible for the safe operation of his/her vehicle.

 

[obermd]

So now I have to ask: if the driver is expected to keep their hands on the wheel at all times and maintain control of the car, exactly what is the purpose of the autopilot system? If it's simply an ACC then it should be called as such.

I still feel the purpose of the autopilot system should be to guide the car safely to a stop if the driver has an event and is unable to maintain control of the car.

Thus is the deadly flaw in all semi-autonomous drive systems.

 

[Barry]

I think if they hold Tesla responsible for this accident, that would be just about like saying that the AP system has to be able to work correctly in every possible situation, even when the painted road lines have faded away or where they have been changed in a confusing way and multiple sets are visible at the same time, or through construction zones, temporary lane closures, fallen objects in the road, flooded or icy areas, etc. I think any reasonable person would see that is not always possible and should not be an expectation of the driver.

 

[obermd]

I think if they hold Tesla responsible for this accident, that would be just about like saying that the AP system has to be able to work correctly in every possible situation, even when the painted road lines have faded away or where they have been changed in a confusing way and multiple sets are visible at the same time, or through construction zones, temporary lane closures, fallen objects in the road, flooded or icy areas, etc. I think any reasonable person would see that is not always possible and should not be an expectation of the driver.

Expectation that the AP can handle these situations, or expectation that the human driver can handle them? I've seen a lot of human drivers who can't handle those situations either.

 

[Barry]

Expectation that the AP can handle these situations, or expectation that the human driver can handle them? I've seen a lot of human drivers who can't handle those situations either.

My expectation is that any licensed human driver of any experience level or ability should be able to easily handle any of those situations safely, or at least know their limitations well enough to avoid driving in those conditions when necessary. But given that there are 6.3 million car crashes in the US each year, it seems that level of performance is not consistently being met.

 

[Mister Dave]

He's at fault. He turned on Autopilot.

But I think it should have a turn on sound with Dirty Harry saying, "Do you feel lucky, punk?" or maybe, "Yippee! Let's roll the dice!", or maybe, "Is your life insurance up to date?"

I like choice #1. I've been an Eastwood fan since I was a kid.

 

[sparks]

So now I have to ask: if the driver is expected to keep their hands on the wheel at all times and maintain control of the car, exactly what is the purpose of the autopilot system? If it's simply an ACC then it should be called as such.

I still feel the purpose of the autopilot system should be to guide the car safely to a stop if the driver has an event and is unable to maintain control of the car.

You win the internet today. It really boils down to, "Feel fee to use AP anytime you want, but be sure to keep your eyes on the road and hands on the wheel at all times."

In other words, use AP like you would adaptive cruise control. Or better yet, save yourself a few thousand bucks, and just get ACC in lieu of AP. The nascent fleets of autonomous vehicles are going to learn this hard lesson as well.

I also think you just nailed the best purpose for AP: To take over briefly if the driver is incapacitated. But for that purpose, it needs to be reprogrammed to find its way safely to the shoulder, then stop. Not THAT I could support, but it would take some serious development to become viable.

 

[BAZINGA]

Or better yet, save yourself a few thousand bucks, and just get ACC in lieu of AP.

Unfortunately you can't to get TACC by it self, you must buy the HW1 or HW2 equipment. Doesn't mean you have to use the AP portion of the suite of features. But TACC is not a stand alone option. Yet.

You can't buy ACC with out another option.

 

[Mister Dave]

Clean Technica titles it differently:

Tesla Model X Sped Up Seconds Before Deadly Crash, NTSB Finds

A photo I haven't seen yet from the NTSB.

 

[srmarti]

Clean Technica titles it differently:

Tesla Model X Sped Up Seconds Before Deadly Crash, NTSB Finds

A photo I haven't seen yet from the NTSB.

So the crashing Tesla caused collateral damage to others? Guess that's not so surprising. DWIs often injure others too.

 

[Steverino]

So the crashing Tesla caused collateral damage to others? Guess that's not so surprising. DWIs often injure others too.

This of course was another case of DWAP (Driving with AutoPilot), the Pinto of semi-autonomous systems.

I'm not in favor of semi (as in not) self driving that allows, encourages or promotes hands free driving including SuperCruise.