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Discussion Starter #1
Nissan talks about battery capacity issues..... very interesting. Battery loss not linear? Experts chime in here.

http://youtu.be/R1tfX7fRWPI

MrEnergyCzar
 

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This was interesting. Thanks for posting it.

One item mentioned was that Nissan hasn't created a price for replacing the entire battery pack (instead they priced out replacing individual battery module). That surprised me.

Is it typical of a car company not to price specific items?

If a car was in an accident that damaged an un-priced part (such as the Leaf’s battery pack), how could the owner / insurance company / repair shop get correct replacement parts if the parts don’t have a price (and aren't designed to be sold to customers)?
 

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She is a crack up! Nissan sound like they are not in the business of selling battery! if you need a new entire battery i bet they would highly recommend there customer to just purchase a new EV. At least that's the way see this.
 

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If I heard correctly, Nissan projects 80% battery capacity for the Leaf after 5 years of driving 12,500 miles per year. Mr. Arizona will see 76% battery capacity after 5 years of driving 7,000 miles per year. What does that tell us?
 

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Nice video.
 

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Nissan sound like they are not in the business of selling battery! if you need a new entire battery i bet they would highly recommend there customer to just purchase a new EV.
That was the most surprising part of the video to me, that Nissan had no provision for people who wanted to drive the car past the usable life of the initial battery. They intended for most people to lease the car. However, the video said they would figure out a way to sell a new battery - even that they would try to make new improvements backwards compatible. It should all be interesting, but there is a lot of uncertainty remaining.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If I heard correctly, Nissan projects 80% battery capacity for the Leaf after 5 years of driving 12,500 miles per year. Mr. Arizona will see 76% battery capacity after 5 years of driving 7,000 miles per year. What does that tell us?
It tells us you should buy a Volt!!!

MrEnergyCzar
 

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Wow this is horrible Nissan! You estimated that the average consumer will drive 12.5K/year and will have 80% capacity after 5 years. In Arizona though, your data shows that the average consumer drives 7.5K/year and will have 76% capacity after 5 years. Which means that the average Arizona driver who logs 12.5k/year (like an average American) will reach 76% of the capacity in 3 years (7.5/12.5*5 = 3)! and this is the average not the 80% percentile or something! Bad battery heat management!!
 

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Interesting that they are talking about replacing batteries on a cell-by-cell basis rather than replacing (and rebuilding the used) battery packs.

Does anyone know what the formation for the battery cells on the Leaf is? Is it similar to the Volt's parallel-series pack construction?
 

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Nissan's rep, Andy Palmer says they expect the average Leaf to go 12,500 miles a year and experience 20% degradation over 5 years. He goes on to say Arizona Leafs operate in a climate that is warmer than normal, so degradation will be faster. However, their data shows the average Arizona Leaf owner drives his/her Leaf an average of 7,500 miles a year. He says their test data indicates these drivers will not experience much more than normal degradation, even though the live in a much warmer than normal climate, because the amount they drive is less than the 12,5000 miles they base their battery life prediction. Specifically 76% verses 80%. So I guess he is saying everything is OK.

Their seems to be several problems with this argument. First, what if you drive more than the average Arizona driver. Say you drive the Nissan norm of 12,500 miles. Wouldn't your battery degradation be higher than normal? Is he saying the poor Leaf owners should have known this. I don't recall any warning to potential Leaf buyers to not drive more than a given number of miles in warmer climates.

The second item I take issue with is the fact that he tends to trivialize the problems being reported by Arizona owners as the outer fringe of the expected Bell curve. The fact is Nissan has sold 450 Leafs in Arizona, and of these 96 have reported battery degradation on MNL. That's over 20% of all Leafs sold in Arizona, and not all Leaf owners participate on that forum. Mr Palmer seems to imply that most of these people have inaccurate battery health gauges. However the results of the battery degradation test performed recently by Leaf owners appear to show this is not the case.

As I watch these event unfold, I am more and more disappointed in the manner in which Nissan treats their customers. Unless they make a U-turn I cannot see how the can maintain credibility with anyone interested in EVs, and more importantly, credibility with those early adopters who placed their trust with them.
 

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Mr Palmer seems to imply that most of these people have inaccurate battery health gauges. However the results of the battery degradation test performed recently by Leaf owners appear to show this is not the case.
That's not true. I looked at that data and there were some vehicles showing battery degradation on the instrument panel, but still performed as well as a Leaf without any such visible degradation. So yeah, they do have some instrumentation issues, but they also have battery issues. So I suspect a software update could actually fix a portion of the Arizona Leafs.
 

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When I looked at the Leaf for purchase before I purchased the Volt the sales manager at the dealership I went to told me to lease instead of purchase because there were no plans by Nissan to produce a battery after the warranty period.


That was the most surprising part of the video to me, that Nissan had no provision for people who wanted to drive the car past the usable life of the initial battery. They intended for most people to lease the car. However, the video said they would figure out a way to sell a new battery - even that they would try to make new improvements backwards compatible. It should all be interesting, but there is a lot of uncertainty remaining.
 
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