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Multiple choice - What could GM do to increase EREV sales? Ideas? (2nd try)

  • Business - Increase and improve advertising/marketing

    Votes: 28 54.9%

  • Business - Highlight that used GM EREVs are holding their value nicely

    Votes: 4 7.8%

  • Business/Tech- Decrease the MSRP of GM EREVs, if possible

    Votes: 12 23.5%

  • Business - Make GM EREV vehicles widely available for conventional rental (work with conventional ag

    Votes: 5 9.8%

  • Business - Partner more strongly with residential and business solar and energy storage installers

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Increase battery size / EV-only range

    Votes: 15 29.4%

  • Improve engine options, maybe focus on some performance and "vroom-vroom" fun performance aspects

    Votes: 3 5.9%

  • Offer quick charging capability

    Votes: 14 27.5%

  • improve home and public opportunity charging including possibly offering options of higher kW and wi

    Votes: 9 17.6%

  • Simplify - decrease complexity of operating the vehicle

    Votes: 4 7.8%

  • Offer EREV powertrain in a large sedan, SUV, crossover or other vehicles with enough rear legroom fo

    Votes: 36 70.6%

  • Offer EREV powertrain in a pickup

    Votes: 19 37.3%

  • Offer and stand behind renewable liquid fuel (flex-fuel with E85, renewable diesel, etc.) capability

    Votes: 3 5.9%

  • Offer a hydrogen fuel cell instead of an internal combustion engine, combined with battery EREV powe

    Votes: 2 3.9%

  • If possible, offer a fuel cell powered by some renewable fuel other than hydrogen

    Votes: 3 5.9%

  • Do more to take advantage of the lower NVH and smooth wonderful ride of the EREV architecture, both

    Votes: 8 15.7%

  • Offer some form of manumatic/stick shift or paddles to increase driver involvement and fun level for

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Other things not presented in this poll (please if possible specify below in the discussion area)

    Votes: 4 7.8%

  • (don't try to prolong EREV sales. It's no big deal... the technology has served its purpose as a br

    Votes: 3 5.9%

  • (don't bother, EREV technology just simply will never sell well and allow for a good profit)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    51

Multiple choice - What could GM do to increase EREV sales? Ideas? (2nd try)

7280 Views 62 Replies 21 Participants Last post by  jlsoaz, 
J
[Disclaimer - opinions and poll setup here entirely my own - not speaking for anyone else].
[Also - sorry to a few who already voted - the original setup I had was missing at least one key option, so it seemed best to delete and repost.]

There have been stories recently that GM is considering ending Volt sales. As well there is some indication it is headed in a strong BEV direction. This poll is to brainstorm a bit as to ways that GM could improve sales of vehicles equipped with its impressive EREV technology.
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Foxtrot said:
Over the few years that I've periodically been around on this forum the issue of a larger EREV has often come up. As well as the issue of why GM chose to make two more or less weirdmobiles instead of two really compelling vehicles. By compelling I mean vehicles that can compete as vehicles against other vehicles, ICE or not. Tesla has had success with that approach.

If I were looking to replace my gen 1 volt today I'd very likely buy a Honda Clarity phev for the reasons that Viking enumerates. Basically its a much more compelling and well priced vehicle than the Volt. And they don't treat the safety features like the crown jewels only bestowed on the gentry. But whether it is a success or not will be interesting to watch. So far it looks as though Honda isn't exactly pushing it.
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The PHEV Clarity is a nice vehicle, honestly much nicer than the 2nd gen Volt at the same MSRP price point. Chevy puts enough cash on the hood of the gen 2 Volt that it's a little bit better of a bargain on the entry level models, but the loaded Premiers are really outclassed by the Touring Clarity IMO, since their price points are almost identical, or cheaper for the Clarity.

Honda dealers are here are starting to build up a tidy inventory of them, with not many sales, and they're sticking to either MSRP or maybe $100-200 off MSRP. No shocker that they're selling kinda slowly. The Clarity's looks are also so-so at best IMO, with some angles looking ok to good, others looking pretty rough.


All of the above with a caveat that I have actively tried to buy a gen 2 Volt recently, but the dealers didn't really want to play ball hard enough. They keep saying junk like, "well the tax credit is going away Jan 1 on EVs!!!" (no it's not) etc.
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As for the original question, right now, people are buying CUV's and only CUV's. In lower gas price states, trucks are also a big mix. Take a look at a vehicle that gets 15-20 mpg in mixed driving and think about the battery pack size to even get ~45-50 miles of EV range. You'd need probably 35-40 kW minimum, nevermind that you'd probably be looking at ~7000-7500 lb curb weights for an EREV powertrain combo on existing huge "half ton" trucks.

So just the EV powertrain and battery by itself would be edging up against the starting price for stripper models of the trucks. Add in an ICE range extender, making the interior fit for the probably $60-70k selling price, and all that sweet truck profit that GM/Ford enjoy would suddenly go away.

On the CUV side, most are <$30k base price, with well optioned ones eeking into the mid-high 30's, or low 40's for some. There are premium nameplates that get much pricier, but that's the general price range for the high volume sellers. Add in ~25 kW of batteries for ~45-50 miles of EV range, and the EV drivetrain, and it's going to be hard to hit anywhere near those prices.


I ultimately feel the inefficient vehicle choices most consumers gravitate towards are why EVs haven't started to be offered in those vehicle types. It's just too pricey for the EV range. I'm sure most public think they could get a 50 mile range EREV CUV, if they even know what that is, but the reality is you need a lot more battery capacity to do that due to the aero drag and weight increase over a small to midsized car.
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Create incentives for dealerships to purchase more hybrid electric plug-ins after expanding models for greater cargo capacity, passenger room, higher clearance, all-wheel-drive. Chrysler Pacifica is one step in the right direction.
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VoltAP1 said:
As for the original question, right now, people are buying CUV's and only CUV's. In lower gas price states, trucks are also a big mix. Take a look at a vehicle that gets 15-20 mpg in mixed driving and think about the battery pack size to even get ~45-50 miles of EV range. You'd need probably 35-40 kW minimum, nevermind that you'd probably be looking at ~7000-7500 lb curb weights for an EREV powertrain combo on existing huge "half ton" trucks.

So just the EV powertrain and battery by itself would be edging up against the starting price for stripper models of the trucks. Add in an ICE range extender, making the interior fit for the probably $60-70k selling price, and all that sweet truck profit that GM/Ford enjoy would suddenly go away.

On the CUV side, most are <$30k base price, with well optioned ones eeking into the mid-high 30's, or low 40's for some. There are premium nameplates that get much pricier, but that's the general price range for the high volume sellers. Add in ~25 kW of batteries for ~45-50 miles of EV range, and the EV drivetrain, and it's going to be hard to hit anywhere near those prices.


I ultimately feel the inefficient vehicle choices most consumers gravitate towards are why EVs haven't started to be offered in those vehicle types. It's just too pricey for the EV range. I'm sure most public think they could get a 50 mile range EREV CUV, if they even know what that is, but the reality is you need a lot more battery capacity to do that due to the aero drag and weight increase over a small to midsized car.
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I think you may be exaggerating or over-simplifying a bit..... in my opinion there's a middle ground here where there can be a good EREV modest-sized crossover or similar, or full-sized sedan giving more interior volume, with the present usable 11 or 12 kWh (or whatever it is). Not all calls for larger interior volume vehicles have to be followed by assumptions of towing capacity or that we are only talking about very large vehicles, or even that we have to be talking about EV-range similar to the Volt.

I think this vehicle (which has been selling well in Europe and is about to go on sale in the US... not sure if it's a CUV or SUV, but whatever....) is a decent example of the affordability of a middle-ground vehicle in this area.

https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2018#phev-upcoming-slideshow
STARTING AT $34,595
MPGE 74
SEATS 5
POWERTRAIN LIMITED WARRANTY
10YRS/100KMILES
THE 2018 MITSUBISHI
OUTLANDER PHEV
Eco-friendly. Adventure focused.
Coming December 2017.
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VoltAP1 said:
The PHEV Clarity is a nice vehicle, honestly much nicer than the 2nd gen Volt at the same MSRP price point. Chevy puts enough cash on the hood of the gen 2 Volt that it's a little bit better of a bargain on the entry level models, but the loaded Premiers are really outclassed by the Touring Clarity IMO, since their price points are almost identical, or cheaper for the Clarity.
[...]
Click to expand...
I think the Clarity PHEV does seem to shape up to be very competitive.

http://www.chevrolet.com/byo-vc/cli...n=Interior&section=Dimensions&styleOne=391262

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-plug-in-hybrid

The number of kWh of the battery is competitive and the interior volume seems at least somewhat better. I don't know enough about the powertrain engineering ....do they protect the battery well.... will it hold up in the Arizona heat? ... what sort of thermal management?....how much of the kWh is bracketed? I don't know. To look at it another way, in some ways a used Ford Fusion Energi looked competitive with the Volt, but I am not sure the powertrain was really competitive....
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hellsop said:
Best single source for all this is http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/

You're correct with the implication that not all lithium ion batteries are the same. When most people, me included, say "lithium ion", they're talking about normal lithium cobalt oxide cathodes with carbon anodes, and the characteristics I talked about are appropriate for those. Technically, lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese oxide, etc are all "lithium ion" as well, but LiCo had a half-decade head start and does a lot of stuff really well that the others just don't get a lot of time.

The Toshiba battery is a lithium–titanate battery, and the big difference is that the anode (positive pole of the cell) is a titanium crystal lattice instead of a carbonate crystal, which is strong enough to make an anode with about 25 times as much surface area, and THAT is what makes the faster recharge rates possible. The downside (not mentioned in the greencar article) is that these batteries are rather more expensive than LiCo and are only about 60% as energy dense, due to the cells having a lower voltage. So you need more battery to make a kwh of storage, which is heavier and bigger than the same power's worth of LiCo. A Bolt with the same battery form-factor would probably have only about 40kwh, have a practical range of about 150 miles, but if you got access to a 350kw charger, it'll charge up in 10 minutes.
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Thanks for the prompt response. I try not to post during my work hours, so that's why I didn't get back on this sooner. The points about lithium cobalt oxide make a bit more sense - your initial claim seemed too sweeping.

I don't know enough about batteries to really say too much specific, but

- at this point I'm not sure what % of good PEVs use a battery chemistry that would really fit within this definition of lithium cobalt oxide. Maybe a higher % than I realize, but I doubt 100%.

- I am not sure that the Volt uses a lithium cobalt oxide battery, at least not one "strictly defined"... perhaps one that is "somewhat" that. For example:

http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

"...Most Li-manganese batteries blend with lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) to improve the specific energy and prolong the life span. This combination brings out the best in each system, and the LMO (NMC) is chosen for most electric vehicles, such as the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt and BMW i3. The LMO part of the battery, which can be about 30 percent, provides high current boost on acceleration; the NMC part gives the long driving range...."
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jlsoaz said:
I think you may be exaggerating or over-simplifying a bit..... in my opinion there's a middle ground here where there can be a good EREV modest-sized crossover or similar, or full-sized sedan giving more interior volume, with the present usable 11 or 12 kWh (or whatever it is). Not all calls for larger interior volume vehicles have to be followed by assumptions of towing capacity or that we are only talking about very large vehicles, or even that we have to be talking about EV-range similar to the Volt.

I think this vehicle (which has been selling well in Europe and is about to go on sale in the US... not sure if it's a CUV or SUV, but whatever....) is a decent example of the affordability of a middle-ground vehicle in this area.

https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2018#phev-upcoming-slideshow
STARTING AT $34,595
MPGE 74
SEATS 5
POWERTRAIN LIMITED WARRANTY
10YRS/100KMILES
THE 2018 MITSUBISHI
OUTLANDER PHEV
Eco-friendly. Adventure focused.
Coming December 2017.
Click to expand...
Mitsubishi has been saying “coming soon” for what, 3 or 4 years now? What’s the all-electric range on the outlander PHEV?
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jlsoaz said:
I think you may be exaggerating or over-simplifying a bit..... in my opinion there's a middle ground here where there can be a good EREV modest-sized crossover or similar, or full-sized sedan giving more interior volume, with the present usable 11 or 12 kWh (or whatever it is). Not all calls for larger interior volume vehicles have to be followed by assumptions of towing capacity or that we are only talking about very large vehicles, or even that we have to be talking about EV-range similar to the Volt.

I think this vehicle (which has been selling well in Europe and is about to go on sale in the US... not sure if it's a CUV or SUV, but whatever....) is a decent example of the affordability of a middle-ground vehicle in this area.

https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2018#phev-upcoming-slideshow
STARTING AT $34,595
MPGE 74
SEATS 5
POWERTRAIN LIMITED WARRANTY
10YRS/100KMILES
THE 2018 MITSUBISHI
OUTLANDER PHEV
Eco-friendly. Adventure focused.
Coming December 2017.
Click to expand...
I don't think I am exaggerating. What do high speeds do to EV range? Now imagine you take a tiny,low CdA car like a volt And Double The frontal area and double the Cd. The range will plummet for the same battery size. same with rolling resistance, power to accelerate etc.
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VoltAP1 said:
I don't think I am exaggerating. What do high speeds do to EV range? Now imagine you take a tiny,low CdA car like a volt And Double The frontal area and double the Cd. The range will plummet for the same battery size. same with rolling resistance, power to accelerate etc.
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If Elon can make a semi truck have a lower Cd than a Ferrari, anything is possible with a little CUV
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llninja said:
Mitsubishi has been saying “coming soon” for what, 3 or 4 years now? What’s the all-electric range on the outlander PHEV?
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Yes, they have dragged this out forever. Nonetheless, the vehicle has been selling quite well in some areas outside the US.

EV Specs and performance, apparently a 12 kWh battery and a claimed (I don't see anything yet at fueleconomy.gov) 22 mile EV range
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2018/specifications
http://www.hybridcars.com/mitsubishi-outlander-phev-march-2018/

example of sales outside the US (and this link is more than a year old)

http://www.hybridcars.com/mitsubishi-sells-100000th-outlander-phev/
Mitsubishi Sells 100,000th Outlander PHEV
by Jeff Cobb May 3, 2016
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I would like a sportwagon version of a Volt. Have a flat battery on the floor with a 100 mile pure electric range and a fuel efficient gas engine capable of obtaining 50 mpg on reg. 87 octane and at least a 10 gallon fuel tank for long extended trips. Also 7.2 KWH charging and fast DC charging capability as well. The flat battery would also allow full 5 person seating as well as more cargo area...
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llninja said:
If Elon can make a semi truck have a lower Cd than a Ferrari, anything is possible with a little CUV
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Indeed. In the end, a large EREV with strong towing capability might well have an EV-range issue depending on various choices, but there is I think a middle ground where one can have a more modest-sized vehicle such as an Impala-sized sedan, old-style wagon, crossover or small or medium-sized SUV where I think some smart compromises can be made to keep costs down and performance up. We are probably already there with some competing PHEVs, depending on the EV range one considers acceptable. I think this probably applies to pickups as well. For the large towing capability vehicles, can cost be kept down? I guess it also depends on desired EV-only range and other factors. So far, there does seem an issue (looking for examples at the reported costs of future Workhorse trucks (I can't recall, are they EREV or BEV or both?) or modified aftermarket PHEV pickups from 3rd parties) but we are seeing lower costs and higher pack sizes here and there, and that should help. One can also increase engine size.

On the BEV side, Tesla is planning a crossover and a pickup. Sure, one can make cynical comments, but they have so far delivered four light-duty vehicles, it is not a stretch to suppose they may get in those other two. So, a question becomes whether a cost- and performance- competitive EREV crossover (or the like) and pickup could be built to compete with the BEVs. Even if it could be built, if GM may build its own competing BEVS, there could be a question of whether it is worth it. So far, 6.67% of poll respondents have checked off the option "(don't try to prolong EREV sales. It's no big deal... the technology has served its purpose as a bridge to full BEV once the batteries were good enough, which they now are)".
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llninja said:
If Elon can make a semi truck have a lower Cd than a Ferrari, anything is possible with a little CUV
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It's not quite that easy. And little front end treatments on a vehicle are only going to buy you so much. Interesting aside to that - I worked on a project a bit where we generated a NEGATIVE CdA on a semi truck via active blowing on the back end of the trailer. A small 2 stroke could supply enough power to turn a blower and basically cancel out any drag force on the truck. Net benefit was way less fuel consumption even with the extra engine. Little tiny treatments like keeping wind off wheels, sloping the back etc help, but if you want the same trailer access as all semis today - you're stuck with A LOT of base drag on the trailer due to that huge dead space.

A little CUV can probably be fine with a bit of a battery bump over a current Volt, but it will need a bit more battery to give the same ~50 mile AER, which I think is what most of the public is going to want to see.

Trucks need a huge amount more energy to move around with their current size and styling. No way around it. I'm betting the Tesla "truck" will be more like a mini-truck in comparison to the "half-ton" gas trucks you see today.


As an engineer I have great hope continual improvements can be made, but there's also the reality of the very basics of the vehicle type being against efficiency. If you make it ultra efficient, it's not really a "truck" in most people's mind anymore, is it?

This is what it takes to get a small truck down to just below the CdA drag of a stock Volt.
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VoltAP1 said:
It's not quite that easy. And little front end treatments on a vehicle are only going to buy you so much. Interesting aside to that - I worked on a project a bit where we generated a NEGATIVE CdA on a semi truck via active blowing on the back end of the trailer. A small 2 stroke could supply enough power to turn a blower and basically cancel out any drag force on the truck. Net benefit was way less fuel consumption even with the extra engine. Little tiny treatments like keeping wind off wheels, sloping the back etc help, but if you want the same trailer access as all semis today - you're stuck with A LOT of base drag on the trailer due to that huge dead space.

A little CUV can probably be fine with a bit of a battery bump over a current Volt, but it will need a bit more battery to give the same ~50 mile AER, which I think is what most of the public is going to want to see.

Trucks need a huge amount more energy to move around with their current size and styling. No way around it. I'm betting the Tesla "truck" will be more like a mini-truck in comparison to the "half-ton" gas trucks you see today.


As an engineer I have great hope continual improvements can be made, but there's also the reality of the very basics of the vehicle type being against efficiency. If you make it ultra efficient, it's not really a "truck" in most people's mind anymore, is it?

This is what it takes to get a small truck down to just below the CdA drag of a stock Volt.
Click to expand...
All you have to do is look at the solar powered car challengers to see what the most efficient drag profile looks like.
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alfon said:
I would like a sportwagon version of a Volt. Have a flat battery on the floor with a 100 mile pure electric range and a fuel efficient gas engine capable of obtaining 50 mpg on reg. 87 octane and at least a 10 gallon fuel tank for long extended trips. Also 7.2 KWH charging and fast DC charging capability as well. The flat battery would also allow full 5 person seating as well as more cargo area...
Click to expand...
Dream on.... I wanted this in 2013 when I bought my volt.... still waiting.... these EVs are getting released at a glacial pace. In 2010 the Volt was released with 35 miles of range. 7.3 years later we're only in the 50s. I'd love to get 100 miles plus fuel backup, but have given up holding my breath for it.
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llninja said:
Dream on.... I wanted this in 2013 when I bought my volt.... still waiting.... these EVs are getting released at a glacial pace. In 2010 the Volt was released with 35 miles of range. 7.3 years later we're only in the 50s. I'd love to get 100 miles plus fuel backup, but have given up holding my breath for it.
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The idea of a 100 mile range EREV presents an interesting thought. With that much range, how useful would the ICE be other than a boat anchor to be lugged around. The ICE (on average) would be used so infrequently that EMM and FMM modes would prevail for it. I imagine there's a tipping point where an EREV is no longer a cost effective model.
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JRRF said:
The idea of a 100 mile range EREV presents an interesting thought. With that much range, how useful would the ICE be other than a boat anchor to be lugged around. The ICE (on average) would be used so infrequently that EMM and FMM modes would prevail for it. I imagine there's a tipping point where an EREV is no longer a cost effective model.
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I would use the ICE all the time as I have a 50 mile round trip commute, no convenient charging at work, and a long distance trip every few weeks or so to Chicago, St. Louis, Bloomington, or Indy. Give me 200 miles with fast charging (without the goofy Bolt/Fit body style) and I could probably live without the ICE.
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JRRF said:
The idea of a 100 mile range EREV presents an interesting thought. With that much range, how useful would the ICE be other than a boat anchor to be lugged around. The ICE (on average) would be used so infrequently that EMM and FMM modes would prevail for it. I imagine there's a tipping point where an EREV is no longer a cost effective model.
Click to expand...
In something like a truck, though, you could leave the option to the end user.
Large battery box under the bed, minimum 1 module to operate. Option to add x more modules for extra EV range, for a cost.
Could even be designed as an add-on after the fact. Person buys with one module, decides they want more, they pay to add another.

In a car, the packaging is not nearly as accessible, making it typically a one-size-fits-all model.
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llninja
canehdian said:
In something like a truck, though, you could leave the option to the end user.
Large battery box under the bed, minimum 1 module to operate. Option to add x more modules for extra EV range, for a cost.
Could even be designed as an add-on after the fact. Person buys with one module, decides they want more, they pay to add another.

In a car, the packaging is not nearly as accessible, making it typically a one-size-fits-all model.
Click to expand...
At least Tesla give you the option to pick a smaller or larger battery. I wish GM did this. I'd pay extra for the bigger battery. End user upgradable would be awesome, but even a dealer-installed option would be nice.
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llninja said:
I would use the ICE all the time as I have a 50 mile round trip commute, no convenient charging at work, and a long distance trip every few weeks or so to Chicago, St. Louis, Bloomington, or Indy. Give me 200 miles with fast charging (without the goofy Bolt/Fit body style) and I could probably live without the ICE.
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No one would ever call you "average" ;)
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