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Discussion Starter #1
They have been around for awhile, but allowed other companies like A123 to drink their milkshake, because they failed to market their products affectively. They've finally got smart, and started putting their batteries into racing vehicles, like the Thunderstruck Bike:

Thunderstruck Website

and now the Apollo Supercar:

Apollo Supercar

Hopefully, they can break out into the marketplace, beyond buses, military and government vehicles.
 

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Good... more competition to bring the price down.
The problem is the cost and supply of lithium for these batteries. You can not get the cost of the batteries below the cost of the materials that go into them. That is why lithium batteries will never beat NiMH in cost.
 

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The problem is the cost and supply of lithium for these batteries. You can not get the cost of the batteries below the cost of the materials that go into them. That is why lithium batteries will never beat NiMH in cost.
NiMH's poor life make them non-viable for plug-in applications, so it will be Lithium, ultra / super capacitors or fuel cells that displace NiMH.
 

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The problem is the cost and supply of lithium for these batteries. You can not get the cost of the batteries below the cost of the materials that go into them. That is why lithium batteries will never beat NiMH in cost.
Are you sure about that? Everything I have read (or at least remember reading) said just the opposite. Look in Wickipedia for NiMH and Lithium-Ion. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Of course, it also depends on the particular versions of NiMH and LI chemistries you are comparing.
 

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Yep all I read is how the cost will come down eventually for Li below NiMH. I think it will be longer than most analyst are predicting though simply based on the huge demand that will have to be met. Takes a long time to go from producing batteries for 100 cars a year to 5 million cars a year.
 

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Yep all I read is how the cost will come down eventually for Li below NiMH. I think it will be longer than most analyst are predicting though simply based on the huge demand that will have to be met. Takes a long time to go from producing batteries for 100 cars a year to 5 million cars a year.
That's why I'm glad that we are starting with REEV's, as it will cover the needs of 80% of the drivers, without using 5X times the batteries, as in the BEV Tesla Roadster.
 

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Yep all I read is how the cost will come down eventually for Li below NiMH. I think it will be longer than most analyst are predicting though simply based on the huge demand that will have to be met. Takes a long time to go from producing batteries for 100 cars a year to 5 million cars a year.
This would make a very interesting market study. The are a lot of complex situations involved that take the pricing out of a simplified Li battery market only assessment. The Li players want an EV market as badly as GM and the EV enthusiasts. This is HUGE for them. They cannot price the batteries too high to risk making the vehicle price impractical. The major auto manufacturers are huge customers and would create markets that do not currently exist. I expect A123 and LG to be asking for long term battery contracts with minimum purcahsing requirements. In return, you can be sure GM is hammering them on price and their production commitments. The carmakers and battery companies really NEED each other in this process and until the EV is an established market segment and the battery companies are established, I don't think simple supply/demand economics will be an overriding factor.

There is a big advantage for GM to be leading the curve here. Other major automotive manufacturers that wait until the market is established will be more at the battery producers' mercy. Of course they could create their own battery production or technological developments can skew this outcome, but GM still has those options later.
 

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There is a big advantage for GM to be leading the curve here. Other major automotive manufacturers that wait until the market is established will be more at the battery producers' mercy. Of course they could create their own battery production or technological developments can skew this outcome, but GM still has those options later.
Per Clayton Christensen's books on disruptive technologies, any players who don't embrace the new tech soon enough go completely out of business. That is why I worry about Ford and Chrysler.
 

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Per Clayton Christensen's books on disruptive technologies, any players who don't embrace the new tech soon enough go completely out of business. That is why I worry about Ford and Chrysler.
Ford and Chrylser have historically embraced new techniques and manufacturing efficiencies more rapidly than GM; witness the discrepancies in build times between Ford products (the Taurus in the 80s v. the GM10 platform of the same era, the reintroduced Mustang in 1994 incorporating a dedicated design team, etc.)

GM did learn a lot of lessons from Ford and Chrysler's new-found competitiveness and, hopefully, much has changed. It's still too bad GM cancelled the EV-1 when they got rid of Stempel and Reuss though.
 
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