I sincerely hope that the Volt when it is manufactured has at least 80 to 90 % North American content. I for one am sick and tired of going to any Home Center or store and finding that almost everything I consider buying is made overseas. So what is the first thing I find when I stumble across this website and click on performance for the Chevy Volt a popup ad for the 2009 Toyota Corolla. I will be honest I HATE IMPORTS PERIOD, the one Japaneese car I bought in my lifetime was a pile of you know what. Every time I hear a Toyota ad on the radio I turn it off or change the station the TV gets the same treatment. I have my deposit ready for the Volt and I have no problem waiting as both of my current vehicles are GM. ITS ABOUT TIME AMERICA WOKE UP AND STARTED SUPPORTING THIS COUNTRY IT MAY ALREADY BE TO LATE.
Lets keep it American Please
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Ironically your way of thinking actually hurts the US in the long run! It's is hard to understand because you don't like to see jobs going overseas and products being imported. I don't think there are too many cars made today that have a majority of parts fabricated in one country. If every part were made in the US the Volt would probably cost over $100,000. It's hard to argue with the fact that a GM union worker gets paid over $50 an hour (including benefits) while that amount of money can secure the labor of 50 hard-working Chinese workers for the entire day!
Don't worry, there’s a huge and pervasive organization out there (World Trade Organization - WTO) that regulates everything. The US generally gets the best deals because we can throw so much of our weight around. As the rest of the world becomes developed (Of course we have to solve the world's energy problems first) there is that much bigger of a market for the US's cool products.
What does the US do great? I'm thinking: computer software, higher education, airplanes, military products, movies, music, green technology (I hope - unless we continue to drag our feet), Apple products - nobody on earth has the equivalent of Steve Jobs right now, cool fashion - ok the actual products are made in Vietnam but the profits go to the US companies, automobiles (if we get our things together), advanced medical technology, advanced agricultural technology, biotechnology, nanotechnology (very soon this will dwarf just about everything and the US is positioned to make the most - along with Germany and Japan), etc. The list goes on and on.
I feel the US has so much to offer while many other countries have only cheap labor or natural resources to offer. As advanced robotic technologies, sustainable technologies and expensive shipping become reality the US will only get stronger and stronger (if we are smart and don't make huge blunders). Thus, I think you should sleep well and don't hate. Business is the new way humans compete instead of war. Much nicer, don't you think? The loser only feels bad and doesn't get as nice a prize.
I think the US can compete in the world market and be a leader for many generations to come. We have the cool culture, great land resources (including wind, solar, water), and an amazing higher education system that the rest of the world can only dream of duplicating. I'm bullish on globalization!
Don't worry, there’s a huge and pervasive organization out there (World Trade Organization - WTO) that regulates everything. The US generally gets the best deals because we can throw so much of our weight around. As the rest of the world becomes developed (Of course we have to solve the world's energy problems first) there is that much bigger of a market for the US's cool products.
What does the US do great? I'm thinking: computer software, higher education, airplanes, military products, movies, music, green technology (I hope - unless we continue to drag our feet), Apple products - nobody on earth has the equivalent of Steve Jobs right now, cool fashion - ok the actual products are made in Vietnam but the profits go to the US companies, automobiles (if we get our things together), advanced medical technology, advanced agricultural technology, biotechnology, nanotechnology (very soon this will dwarf just about everything and the US is positioned to make the most - along with Germany and Japan), etc. The list goes on and on.
I feel the US has so much to offer while many other countries have only cheap labor or natural resources to offer. As advanced robotic technologies, sustainable technologies and expensive shipping become reality the US will only get stronger and stronger (if we are smart and don't make huge blunders). Thus, I think you should sleep well and don't hate. Business is the new way humans compete instead of war. Much nicer, don't you think? The loser only feels bad and doesn't get as nice a prize.
I think the US can compete in the world market and be a leader for many generations to come. We have the cool culture, great land resources (including wind, solar, water), and an amazing higher education system that the rest of the world can only dream of duplicating. I'm bullish on globalization!
You are incorrect in thinking that it's OK to send manufacturing jobs overseas or somewhere else on our continent. You are also mistaken when you propose that the Volt would need to cost $100k if the majority of it were made in the US. However, you are correct in asserting that a UAW member should probably not be paid the sums that they currently collect. Pensions? Who the heck has a pension anymore besides gov't employees?
As for Apple being a US leader...how many actual, authentic Apple I-Pods do you think have been sold in China? Not many; not many people can afford them. How many rip-off's have been sold there: millions and millions. How many pieces of junk does China sell in the US? Zillions of things. Do you really think that Steve Jobbs is going to save the US economy? Nanotechnology? "Higher" education? Many high-schooled Indians can smoke our college graduates in numerous fields.
Unfortunately, many of the things that you look to for the US' future are related to intellectual property, something that is essentially unenforced in any foreign market. Is INTERPOL going to arrest people infringing on patents? Ha; yeah right!
Take a step out of the ivory tower for a couple minutes here and there; it'll do you good.
As for Apple being a US leader...how many actual, authentic Apple I-Pods do you think have been sold in China? Not many; not many people can afford them. How many rip-off's have been sold there: millions and millions. How many pieces of junk does China sell in the US? Zillions of things. Do you really think that Steve Jobbs is going to save the US economy? Nanotechnology? "Higher" education? Many high-schooled Indians can smoke our college graduates in numerous fields.
Unfortunately, many of the things that you look to for the US' future are related to intellectual property, something that is essentially unenforced in any foreign market. Is INTERPOL going to arrest people infringing on patents? Ha; yeah right!
Take a step out of the ivory tower for a couple minutes here and there; it'll do you good.
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Thank you for supporting my arguments. You say I am incorrect but offer no reason why. What kind of argument is that? One I can't debate. Please try again.
Yes. Today there is a huge problem with counterfeit products being sold in underdeveloped nations. They are too poor to afford the real deal, as you mentioned (thank you) and don't have enough money for real enforcement. That’s why globalization is a good thing. Don't you see? When other nations become developed through world trade they become more wealthy and can then afford real products and real enforcement.
Higher education. The last time I checked higher education meant HIGHER than high school. Thanks for the laugh on that one. Yes, our primary education system in the US is a shame. A disgrace if you will. This is one of the things that we need to fix or we will not be able to compete well. If you saw first hand how hard Asian students work you would be frightened. However, that’s no reason to put our heads in the sand and close our boarders. We should be saying, "Heck! We have the best software companies on earth and the biggest budgets imaginable. We will not rest until we use our advanced technology to make our primary education system the world's most advanced." If we took that path nobody could touch us. Not now not for a long time. Of course our government is set up for short-term results and educating a person takes decades. <sigh> If oil doesn't do us in our poor primary education system will. You want fries with that?
The ivory tower dig. Another good one. I'm talking about how the world economies are intertwined and the importance of building economies for greater commerce. Additionally, I'm on the GM-Volt site debating how best to apply technology to help solve our oil problems and you accuse me of being an academic elitist that deals with impractical subject matter? You have got to be kidding me.
When you claim that the Volt would cost roughly $100k if outsourced manufacturing were not used by GM, you are assuming that the price of manufacturing things outside of the US is much, much less. You also appear to be OK with letting the US economy rest firmly on the labor of white collar workers, esp in technology fields (of some sort), while taking advantage of cheap foreign labor for manufacturing.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the Volt's battery system being manufactured outside the US because the environmental restrictions in the US make battery production much, much more expensive than in China or Mexico.
The situation for rest of the car's components probably isn't that clear-cut.
For a simple example, take Mag Industries in California. American Co; American manufacturer; "simple" product. Several years back they invested $Millions to automate their assembly plant in Ontario, CA rather than outsource production of their flashlights. Wholesale prices of their products have not increased over the last decade or so. The quality of their products is equally good as has been in the past. Chinese knock-off products are about 25% cheaper wholesale for "comparable" products, as they have been for the last decade. However, the three Chinese versions that I can think of off the top of my head are made with horrific quality standards.
In Mag's case, a simple aluminum or steel flashlight is produced in the US for a very similar price as foreign-made competitors; albeit at much higher quality.
For a high-tech example of US manufacturing, take Patriot Memory Systems. Another company that does the vast amount of its manufacturing and assembling of American products in the US. This company assembles state-of-the-art RAM modules for use in PC's and laptops. Their prices (both wholesale and retail) are similar to those of Chinese-made competitors. Take a look on New Egg's site if you don't believe me. Intel and AMD also do a bunch of manufacturing of their chips in the US (not many people know this).
Now if we can competitively manufacture items such as aluminum and steel tubes to high-tech computer chips in the US without outsourcing to foreign assembly labor, why can't we cost-competitively make a body panel for a car here? How about an electric motor? Wires? Steel or aluminum wheels? Tires? Seats?
Once these jobs are overseas, they don't often return...but it's not the assembly jobs that I'm necessarily worried about, it's the loss of the US' ability to manufacture within it's borders. It's a matter of national security, not to mention a growing disgust by the American consumer towards cheap imported products that are of poor quality.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the Volt's battery system being manufactured outside the US because the environmental restrictions in the US make battery production much, much more expensive than in China or Mexico.
The situation for rest of the car's components probably isn't that clear-cut.
For a simple example, take Mag Industries in California. American Co; American manufacturer; "simple" product. Several years back they invested $Millions to automate their assembly plant in Ontario, CA rather than outsource production of their flashlights. Wholesale prices of their products have not increased over the last decade or so. The quality of their products is equally good as has been in the past. Chinese knock-off products are about 25% cheaper wholesale for "comparable" products, as they have been for the last decade. However, the three Chinese versions that I can think of off the top of my head are made with horrific quality standards.
In Mag's case, a simple aluminum or steel flashlight is produced in the US for a very similar price as foreign-made competitors; albeit at much higher quality.
For a high-tech example of US manufacturing, take Patriot Memory Systems. Another company that does the vast amount of its manufacturing and assembling of American products in the US. This company assembles state-of-the-art RAM modules for use in PC's and laptops. Their prices (both wholesale and retail) are similar to those of Chinese-made competitors. Take a look on New Egg's site if you don't believe me. Intel and AMD also do a bunch of manufacturing of their chips in the US (not many people know this).
Now if we can competitively manufacture items such as aluminum and steel tubes to high-tech computer chips in the US without outsourcing to foreign assembly labor, why can't we cost-competitively make a body panel for a car here? How about an electric motor? Wires? Steel or aluminum wheels? Tires? Seats?
Once these jobs are overseas, they don't often return...but it's not the assembly jobs that I'm necessarily worried about, it's the loss of the US' ability to manufacture within it's borders. It's a matter of national security, not to mention a growing disgust by the American consumer towards cheap imported products that are of poor quality.
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Nice argument about the quality of Chinese products. That's the same argument people used about the Japanese cars of the 80's.
The cost for a GM only manufactured product is the extra cost of the extremely expensive unionized labor. If the union allowed GM to fully automate factories like the automobile factories in Japan (you would not even believe it) then GM would be just fine. If the union allowed GM to decide what and where to manufacture and how to manufacture for the best price and quality then GM would be fine. You and I both know that GM does not have this freedom. Even though GM would be much stronger and the workers would have better job conditions and security (even if there were far fewer core workers).
Please don't throw up your hands about the lost of manufacturing jobs. As long as we continue to work on our automation technology and robotics technology the US will be fine, as evidenced in the examples you presented.
It is my contention that the percentage of manufacturing jobs with continue to decrease and that is a good thing. Let me explain. The main reason everything is produced at locations where the labor is cheap is because a company gets the product they want at a cheaper price. That includes all the tariffs and transportation fees. If the quality was not good enough people would not buy the products and the producers in America would flourish. That is clearly not the case. Would you agree with that statement for the 50% of the products that Wal-Mart sells (they are made in China)? They may be cheaply made but that is what Americans what! They can go to an expensive department store and get the same toaster made in Germany or America that will last a lifetime but they don’t do it because they are not willing to pay for it! It’s reality.
The agricultural industry is a great model for my theories. In China nearly 80% of the population is engaged in the agricultural industry. What is the percentage in the US? Around 2%. That should be a shocking answer for anyone that did not already know that. Why? Because the US agriculture has the best technology on earth and the process is almost fully automated. Even the giant tractors nearly drive themselves.
The percentage of manufacturing jobs in the US? Around 6%. Huge number, huh? This number will get down to the level of the agricultural industry as automation technology improves. Yes, I’m ok with resting the entire US economy on white collar jobs. It is inevitable because machines will be able to work far faster, longer, cheaper, and with much better quality than humans will be able to. We only use humans for these most tedious jobs because their hands (manipulators) and brains (central processing units) are far superior than anything we can come up with at our present state of technology. This will not last forever. If you watch the advancement of robotic technology around the world you will also come to this simple conclusion. Do not worry, this is not a bad thing. I know it’s not a politically correct thing to talk about and that people are worried about it. If you think that is scary wait until you see what is coming down the pipe with regards to nanotechnology. You might just pull your hair out.
I’m am all for this, if you couldn’t tell already. I don’t think humans should be wasting their time doing repetitive manufacturing tasks. These tasks are not good for the body, soul, development of the mind, etc. Can you argue that? The human brain is the most amazing thing on earth. The things that just one brain can do can profoundly change the entire world, for better or worse. It is sad for me to see how much we waste this most precious resource. Kind of like 5.9 billion out of 6 billion supercomputers sitting in storage with only a small power cord plugged in to keep things warm. I know you are going to tell me that I’m thinking too far in the future and blah blah but sometimes we have to see the forest for the trees. If you act on silly statements like “Buy American” you will put the US on poor footing to compete in the unstoppable global economy. This thinking by the way put the US automobile market many years behind the Japanese automakers. Why? Because the big three were able to pump out cars with less quality and Americans would still buy them. The big three did not have to keep up. This cost them in the long run. It is a basic case study in business school. I know I will never be able to convince you but hopefully others that are reading with an open mind will at least consider weighing both of our views and come up with a conclusion of their own. For that I thank you for your vigorous stand.
The cost for a GM only manufactured product is the extra cost of the extremely expensive unionized labor. If the union allowed GM to fully automate factories like the automobile factories in Japan (you would not even believe it) then GM would be just fine. If the union allowed GM to decide what and where to manufacture and how to manufacture for the best price and quality then GM would be fine. You and I both know that GM does not have this freedom. Even though GM would be much stronger and the workers would have better job conditions and security (even if there were far fewer core workers).
Please don't throw up your hands about the lost of manufacturing jobs. As long as we continue to work on our automation technology and robotics technology the US will be fine, as evidenced in the examples you presented.
It is my contention that the percentage of manufacturing jobs with continue to decrease and that is a good thing. Let me explain. The main reason everything is produced at locations where the labor is cheap is because a company gets the product they want at a cheaper price. That includes all the tariffs and transportation fees. If the quality was not good enough people would not buy the products and the producers in America would flourish. That is clearly not the case. Would you agree with that statement for the 50% of the products that Wal-Mart sells (they are made in China)? They may be cheaply made but that is what Americans what! They can go to an expensive department store and get the same toaster made in Germany or America that will last a lifetime but they don’t do it because they are not willing to pay for it! It’s reality.
The agricultural industry is a great model for my theories. In China nearly 80% of the population is engaged in the agricultural industry. What is the percentage in the US? Around 2%. That should be a shocking answer for anyone that did not already know that. Why? Because the US agriculture has the best technology on earth and the process is almost fully automated. Even the giant tractors nearly drive themselves.
The percentage of manufacturing jobs in the US? Around 6%. Huge number, huh? This number will get down to the level of the agricultural industry as automation technology improves. Yes, I’m ok with resting the entire US economy on white collar jobs. It is inevitable because machines will be able to work far faster, longer, cheaper, and with much better quality than humans will be able to. We only use humans for these most tedious jobs because their hands (manipulators) and brains (central processing units) are far superior than anything we can come up with at our present state of technology. This will not last forever. If you watch the advancement of robotic technology around the world you will also come to this simple conclusion. Do not worry, this is not a bad thing. I know it’s not a politically correct thing to talk about and that people are worried about it. If you think that is scary wait until you see what is coming down the pipe with regards to nanotechnology. You might just pull your hair out.
I’m am all for this, if you couldn’t tell already. I don’t think humans should be wasting their time doing repetitive manufacturing tasks. These tasks are not good for the body, soul, development of the mind, etc. Can you argue that? The human brain is the most amazing thing on earth. The things that just one brain can do can profoundly change the entire world, for better or worse. It is sad for me to see how much we waste this most precious resource. Kind of like 5.9 billion out of 6 billion supercomputers sitting in storage with only a small power cord plugged in to keep things warm. I know you are going to tell me that I’m thinking too far in the future and blah blah but sometimes we have to see the forest for the trees. If you act on silly statements like “Buy American” you will put the US on poor footing to compete in the unstoppable global economy. This thinking by the way put the US automobile market many years behind the Japanese automakers. Why? Because the big three were able to pump out cars with less quality and Americans would still buy them. The big three did not have to keep up. This cost them in the long run. It is a basic case study in business school. I know I will never be able to convince you but hopefully others that are reading with an open mind will at least consider weighing both of our views and come up with a conclusion of their own. For that I thank you for your vigorous stand.
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I couldn't agree more
The human mind is a terrible thing to waste. Every time I breeze through the automated toll road lane I am appalled that they still have humans manning the full service lanes. What a waste of human talent performing a job that certainly could be automated. Those people would be far more productive in a white collar job designing the Volt 2.0
The human mind is a terrible thing to waste. Every time I breeze through the automated toll road lane I am appalled that they still have humans manning the full service lanes. What a waste of human talent performing a job that certainly could be automated. Those people would be far more productive in a white collar job designing the Volt 2.0
I get to play devil's advocate for a while
Who'll make change when you get on the toll road and only have a $5 bill? Besides, automation is not as simple as it sounds. You have to have very simple, repeatable, tasks. Humans are very capable when it comes to doing complex tasks, at least compared to machines.
<hr>
For the purposes of this thread It would be nice to see where all of the money goes for say GM and Toyota.
x% to R&D
y% to Labor
z% to management
a% to the board and execs
b% to Share holders
c% to marketing
d% to parts
e% to maintenance and infrastructure
etc..
only then can we really point fingers.
Who is going to pay for their re-education. Them? I'm going to guess toll taking wasn't their life's aspiration, yet somehow they ended up there. So I would guess that they can't afford to re-educate themselves and go get that white collar job.
Who'll make change when you get on the toll road and only have a $5 bill? Besides, automation is not as simple as it sounds. You have to have very simple, repeatable, tasks. Humans are very capable when it comes to doing complex tasks, at least compared to machines.
<hr>
For the purposes of this thread It would be nice to see where all of the money goes for say GM and Toyota.
x% to R&D
y% to Labor
z% to management
a% to the board and execs
b% to Share holders
c% to marketing
d% to parts
e% to maintenance and infrastructure
etc..
only then can we really point fingers.
NLH,
You've ommitted one of the most important categories: taxes to the US gov't. Corporate taxes, income taxes, property taxes, employer contributions to Medicare and Social Security, although the latter two of these could be tossed into the "labor" category...
GM pays waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to the US gov't compared to Toyota. The US gov't plays a huge role in the American economy, as you undoubtedly know already.
You've ommitted one of the most important categories: taxes to the US gov't. Corporate taxes, income taxes, property taxes, employer contributions to Medicare and Social Security, although the latter two of these could be tossed into the "labor" category...
GM pays waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to the US gov't compared to Toyota. The US gov't plays a huge role in the American economy, as you undoubtedly know already.
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Yes, GM pays a lot of taxes. Exactly. However, imagine the person deciding to buy a <insert other manufacturer here> or GM car. He only sees the quality of the product and the price tag. His decision should not be based on how much taxes GM pays. He will not be thinking, "Yes, it looks like they put less into this car because their labor costs are so expensive and need to compete with <insert other manufacturer here> but at least they pay more to the government and we all benefit in the long-run. LOL! If people thought that far in the future we would not have the problems in the world we have today. Agreed?
About the re-education comment by one of the posters. Our situation will not change overnight. It’s analogous to turning a supertanker. We will have to start from the beginning and wait the decades it takes for change. I’m quite sure the government will not make this happen. It will be some innovative company that invents a new way of educating people using our advanced computer and Internet technologies (that exist today by the way) for more than just amazingly advanced computer games. Even with all this technology we hold the world still teaches the same way it did generations ago. The frame of mind is that a company can’t make money on education products, especially software. What they fail to realize is that they are basing their ideas on the results obtained when early education pioneers placed PCs on the desks of students. These efforts didn’t work. Until a complete system is designed, one that integrates the entire learning experience, great results will not be seen. Some company will crack this nut and I’m thinking it will be fairly soon. Once a workable prototype is tested then the governments of the world will start getting into the game. Not doing so would put their people at a disadvantage. Microsoft, what have you got brewing in your labs? Google? Apple?
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Well, as long as you're making list of the reasons why we don't need to tax "rich corporations" anymore than they are already being taxed, don't forget the number cost to employers, employee medical benefits.
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What happened to the independent spirit in this country? When did we all become so helpless? Yes them. If people want to better their lives with a college degree there several options available to them – grants, scholarships, and low interest education loans – especially if they are low income. Of course, they have to expend a little effort to secure the funds, no one is going to bust down their door and hand them the money. Well, at least not yet. Today, you still have to want to get a degree, and be willing to invest in yourself. Which begs an interesting question, if you're not willing to invest in yourself, why should you expect anyone else to be?
How can we forget that most "foreign" and "Japanese" cars are assembled on American Soil and provide THOUSANDS of jobs to Americans who were laid off by American companies (Ford, GM, etc..) at their car plants. Not only that, they pay better too!
Don't be so biased.
While I think it's a great idea to keep the "made" in America, it's almost impossible with vehicles. Some nut, some bolt, some electronic piece will come from out of country.
BTW.. i've owned both American and currently own Japanese. I am happy with both sides.
The best part of being American is the given right to choose what I want to spend MY money on.
Don't be so biased.
While I think it's a great idea to keep the "made" in America, it's almost impossible with vehicles. Some nut, some bolt, some electronic piece will come from out of country.
BTW.. i've owned both American and currently own Japanese. I am happy with both sides.
The best part of being American is the given right to choose what I want to spend MY money on.
This has nothing to do with charity
After I graduated, it took me over 2 years to get a real engineering job. I worked as a tech mostly, but I had to work as a waiter and counter jockey as well (which is where I developed such a contempt the state lottery). Thank god that student loans have a differment plan if you are unemployed or under-employed, because I utilized it.
So yes, opportunities exist, but you shouldn't be so flippant about the simplicity of taking advantage of them. I takes hard work, dedication, time, and support. It takes a tolerance of bureaucracy, and it takes a belief in yourself. It also takes an aptitude and interest of a particular field of study. And the biggest thing, it takes an understanding that it can be done.
For all we know the people taking tolls or tearing tickets at the theater are putting themselves through school. They may also be working to support a family. They may be retired and only work one or two days a week for extra income and something to do.
Maybe someday we all will have decent paying white collar jobs, but it's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to happen with legislation, and it's certainly not going to happen when we get replaced by a robot (or excel macro).
...One final thought. If you ever find yourself saying "get a job" to a homeless person asking you for change. Ask yourself "would you hire them?".
I am not saying they are helpless, I am just saying the opportunity to better them selves is not AS available as you say it is. I agree that there are loan opportunities, but this is no simple process, as there is a chicken/egg paradox since you can't get financing without being in school, but you can't really go to school without financing. This can be overcome, but it basically requires boot strapping yourself up. I know this because I did this. I'm a high school dropout. I got myself into college (with some financial help from my parents), dropped out of college because I wasn't ready, took a couple of years off, went to a community college, transferred to a state school, got into the engineering school and graduated (not even close to the top of my class). I couldn't have done it without student loans.
After I graduated, it took me over 2 years to get a real engineering job. I worked as a tech mostly, but I had to work as a waiter and counter jockey as well (which is where I developed such a contempt the state lottery). Thank god that student loans have a differment plan if you are unemployed or under-employed, because I utilized it.
So yes, opportunities exist, but you shouldn't be so flippant about the simplicity of taking advantage of them. I takes hard work, dedication, time, and support. It takes a tolerance of bureaucracy, and it takes a belief in yourself. It also takes an aptitude and interest of a particular field of study. And the biggest thing, it takes an understanding that it can be done.
For all we know the people taking tolls or tearing tickets at the theater are putting themselves through school. They may also be working to support a family. They may be retired and only work one or two days a week for extra income and something to do.
Maybe someday we all will have decent paying white collar jobs, but it's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to happen with legislation, and it's certainly not going to happen when we get replaced by a robot (or excel macro).
...One final thought. If you ever find yourself saying "get a job" to a homeless person asking you for change. Ask yourself "would you hire them?".
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nlh 90210,
I didn’t really mean this to get into a homeless debate, as every case is unique. Nor did I mean to imply that we should be uncompassionate and not help out where and when we can.
My comment was directed at getting a college degree, and my point was simply if someone doesn’t want one, there’s not much you can do. If there is a will, there is usually a way. We are not helpless; we live in an extremely compassionate society. You sound like you’re living proof. I bet you had a lot of help and encouragement along the way, and you obviously asked for and got college student loans. It also didn’t hurt that you had the will and desire to see it through.
So although it wasn’t easy, I’d imagine that you are quite proud of your accomplishment, and deservedly so. But above it all, you had to want to get that engineering degree and being willing to work hard and sacrifice in the short term to benefit in the long term.
I didn’t really mean this to get into a homeless debate, as every case is unique. Nor did I mean to imply that we should be uncompassionate and not help out where and when we can.
My comment was directed at getting a college degree, and my point was simply if someone doesn’t want one, there’s not much you can do. If there is a will, there is usually a way. We are not helpless; we live in an extremely compassionate society. You sound like you’re living proof. I bet you had a lot of help and encouragement along the way, and you obviously asked for and got college student loans. It also didn’t hurt that you had the will and desire to see it through.
So although it wasn’t easy, I’d imagine that you are quite proud of your accomplishment, and deservedly so. But above it all, you had to want to get that engineering degree and being willing to work hard and sacrifice in the short term to benefit in the long term.
It's not as simple as wanting and not wanting
agreed... no homeless debate
My concern is that we look at someone who is doing a menial task and look down upon them saying "they don't want to better themselves". I agree that desire is critical for personal advancement, but it is not sufficient. We both agree that there is money out there for those willing to use it for education. But it does take more than money and desire. Knowing that it is attainable is key, and knowing or figuring out how to get things done is key as well. Our education system is abysmal when it come to actually preparing people for the real world. People need to understand that there is opportunity and how to take advantage of it. Without that, the actual opportunity is wasted.
I am proud of what I did, but I have no illusions that it took a lot of help from my family, my friends, my professors, the student aid association, and the administrative assistants in the college of engineering and mathematics.
agreed... no homeless debate
My concern is that we look at someone who is doing a menial task and look down upon them saying "they don't want to better themselves". I agree that desire is critical for personal advancement, but it is not sufficient. We both agree that there is money out there for those willing to use it for education. But it does take more than money and desire. Knowing that it is attainable is key, and knowing or figuring out how to get things done is key as well. Our education system is abysmal when it come to actually preparing people for the real world. People need to understand that there is opportunity and how to take advantage of it. Without that, the actual opportunity is wasted.
I am proud of what I did, but I have no illusions that it took a lot of help from my family, my friends, my professors, the student aid association, and the administrative assistants in the college of engineering and mathematics.
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3,689 Posts
Interesting discussion. I have a far-out perspective on the subject, a few of you might not be surprised. 
I truly believe that if a human can walk and talk to normal standards (I'm excluding the mentally handicapped) than that human has the brain power to potentially master just about any subject we currently offer in colleges. This includes doctors, brain surgeons, rocket scientists, engineers, lawyers, etc. Some subjects like art or music I'm not quite convinced because first of all, what is mastery and second of all, it seems like some people have brains that are specifically wired for this (can see a 3D image in their head and go carve it out in stone). Taking out extreme examples and just looking at the potential of people that can walk and talk to normal standards and the current state of our technology I feel confident with my claims.
First of all have any of you tried to learn a language? It takes an amazing amount of effort and time for most people yet almost every small child is able to do it. In fact, every adult is able to do it as well - potentially even faster because they are able to work harder and with greater efficiency while using books and other studying techniques - I disagree with those that say only children can learn). I feel the biggest barrier is not the government, lack of money or time or not enough brain power. I feel the biggest barrier is ourselves. I know that sounds corny but I'm talking specifically of our physiological restraints. The same ones that say to follow another person because you are convinced that doing so would improve your situation. The same restraints that tell you that you are too stupid for anything better and that doing a job you hate is your station in life. If we were to do a poll right now I wonder what percentage of the world's people enjoy their current way of making a living. How many feel fulfilled, challenged, comfortable and proud. I'm guessing that number is very low. Yet the facts are that humans have the most advanced computational system on earth. No other animal or machine is even close.
If a child it told they are stupid (which happens in most schooling environments) and that they should do this or that or that they cannot do something then eventually most will believe it. Of course there is the whole nature or nurture debate and as you can tell I am more on the nurture side. To me the nature side is fully loaded and ready to go. The brain is a 454 V8 sitting on the line with a tank full of alcohol.
The fact is, at our current state of technology, it’s probably necessary for people to under perform. Somebody has to do the dirty work. Right? In the past the people that believed that they were inferior to others would follow strong leaders and build huge armies that could easily kill off a disorganized group of thinkers. So, this is how we got to the situation we are at today. Huge brain potential but great psychological restraints.
For those that think I'm full of it let me ask you this. Let's say tomorrow you simply decide to become a lawyer. No matter what anyone said you decided that you wanted to do it. You were fully aware that you may never get to practice but that you just loved law and wanted to put every ounce of energy into it. From morning till night. Even when you were sleeping you were dreaming about law. The beauty of it... The artistic beauty. Thus, even though you were a drop-out, told by your teachers and parents that you were stupid and that you could not possibly do it you decided to dedicate the rest of your life to the study and practice of law. You currently have a wife and child (even your wife thinks your crazy) and your current job at McDonalds barely covers your expenses. You don't even know where to start! Man, is this a hopeless case or what? It’s my contention that if this man were to dedicate his life and full effort to this task that he would easily have the ability to pass the bar in less than 10 years. I have no doubt in my mind at all. I'm talking Forest Gump like effort and dedication. Think about it. This person can already speak a language and can understand tens of thousands of words and concepts at the blink of an eye. Is memorizing the US legal rules and regulations that much of a stretch in the imagination?
Look at it this way. Take this same person and transport him back in time and have him sit next to the greatest brain in the history of man, Leonardo Da Vinci. That mere McDonalds worker would in fact be the most gifted human on earth. His genius would seem to surpass Leonardo’s by several factors. Poor Leonardo would be drawing up his airplane wings and this McDonald's worker could fold a paper airplane in a minute and make Leonardo look like a fool. Am I wrong? Human genetics take a long time to evolve (tens of thousands of years) so its not like the McDonald’s worker is genetically superior to Leonardo yet he has abilities and understanding that would make him seem god-like.
I just realized I'm sounding like a motivational speaker. You can do it! The fact is, you truly can. Most people have more than enough raw brain power to tackle our simple level of technology. If a McDonald's worker from the future came here tomorrow he would make Einstein look bad in about 15 minutes. If you don't believe me try a small experiment. Pick something easy and dedicate 100 percent of your effort toward it for one week. I think you would be surprised at what you are capable of doing. The reality is the biggest obstacle will be your own psychology. You will tell yourself that you are tired, what are you doing this for, wouldn't you rather watch some TV and eat some delicious foods, etc. Try it and watch yourself hold you back. Priceless.
I truly believe that if a human can walk and talk to normal standards (I'm excluding the mentally handicapped) than that human has the brain power to potentially master just about any subject we currently offer in colleges. This includes doctors, brain surgeons, rocket scientists, engineers, lawyers, etc. Some subjects like art or music I'm not quite convinced because first of all, what is mastery and second of all, it seems like some people have brains that are specifically wired for this (can see a 3D image in their head and go carve it out in stone). Taking out extreme examples and just looking at the potential of people that can walk and talk to normal standards and the current state of our technology I feel confident with my claims.First of all have any of you tried to learn a language? It takes an amazing amount of effort and time for most people yet almost every small child is able to do it. In fact, every adult is able to do it as well - potentially even faster because they are able to work harder and with greater efficiency while using books and other studying techniques - I disagree with those that say only children can learn). I feel the biggest barrier is not the government, lack of money or time or not enough brain power. I feel the biggest barrier is ourselves. I know that sounds corny but I'm talking specifically of our physiological restraints. The same ones that say to follow another person because you are convinced that doing so would improve your situation. The same restraints that tell you that you are too stupid for anything better and that doing a job you hate is your station in life. If we were to do a poll right now I wonder what percentage of the world's people enjoy their current way of making a living. How many feel fulfilled, challenged, comfortable and proud. I'm guessing that number is very low. Yet the facts are that humans have the most advanced computational system on earth. No other animal or machine is even close.
If a child it told they are stupid (which happens in most schooling environments) and that they should do this or that or that they cannot do something then eventually most will believe it. Of course there is the whole nature or nurture debate and as you can tell I am more on the nurture side. To me the nature side is fully loaded and ready to go. The brain is a 454 V8 sitting on the line with a tank full of alcohol.
The fact is, at our current state of technology, it’s probably necessary for people to under perform. Somebody has to do the dirty work. Right? In the past the people that believed that they were inferior to others would follow strong leaders and build huge armies that could easily kill off a disorganized group of thinkers. So, this is how we got to the situation we are at today. Huge brain potential but great psychological restraints.
For those that think I'm full of it let me ask you this. Let's say tomorrow you simply decide to become a lawyer. No matter what anyone said you decided that you wanted to do it. You were fully aware that you may never get to practice but that you just loved law and wanted to put every ounce of energy into it. From morning till night. Even when you were sleeping you were dreaming about law. The beauty of it... The artistic beauty. Thus, even though you were a drop-out, told by your teachers and parents that you were stupid and that you could not possibly do it you decided to dedicate the rest of your life to the study and practice of law. You currently have a wife and child (even your wife thinks your crazy) and your current job at McDonalds barely covers your expenses. You don't even know where to start! Man, is this a hopeless case or what? It’s my contention that if this man were to dedicate his life and full effort to this task that he would easily have the ability to pass the bar in less than 10 years. I have no doubt in my mind at all. I'm talking Forest Gump like effort and dedication. Think about it. This person can already speak a language and can understand tens of thousands of words and concepts at the blink of an eye. Is memorizing the US legal rules and regulations that much of a stretch in the imagination?
Look at it this way. Take this same person and transport him back in time and have him sit next to the greatest brain in the history of man, Leonardo Da Vinci. That mere McDonalds worker would in fact be the most gifted human on earth. His genius would seem to surpass Leonardo’s by several factors. Poor Leonardo would be drawing up his airplane wings and this McDonald's worker could fold a paper airplane in a minute and make Leonardo look like a fool. Am I wrong? Human genetics take a long time to evolve (tens of thousands of years) so its not like the McDonald’s worker is genetically superior to Leonardo yet he has abilities and understanding that would make him seem god-like.
I just realized I'm sounding like a motivational speaker. You can do it!
The fact is, you truly can. Most people have more than enough raw brain power to tackle our simple level of technology. If a McDonald's worker from the future came here tomorrow he would make Einstein look bad in about 15 minutes. If you don't believe me try a small experiment. Pick something easy and dedicate 100 percent of your effort toward it for one week. I think you would be surprised at what you are capable of doing. The reality is the biggest obstacle will be your own psychology. You will tell yourself that you are tired, what are you doing this for, wouldn't you rather watch some TV and eat some delicious foods, etc. Try it and watch yourself hold you back. Priceless.
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13 Posts
Texas,
I have to disagree with you on this point:
“The cost for a GM only manufactured product is the extra cost of the extremely expensive unionized labor. If the union allowed GM to fully automate factories like the automobile factories in Japan (you would not even believe it) then GM would be just fine. If the union allowed GM to decide what and where to manufacture and how to manufacture for the best price and quality then GM would be fine. You and I both know that GM does not have this freedom. Even though GM would be much stronger and the workers would have better job conditions and security (even if there were far fewer core workers).”
It might have been like that in the 80’s but its not like that anymore. There are all kinds of myths out there on how much money union guys make. They can make around $55,000 a year after 20-25 years of service. They can make a lot more than that if they soak up all the overtime. But of course that’s time away from your family. Last I checked they have the same health care plan as everyone else. The new UAW contract has those same workers making $15.00 an hour. It’s hard to raise a family on that. As far as the where to manufacture issue is concerned. I don’t think it’s a problem. They manufacture parts all over the world. And GM factories are some of the most high tech factories in the world. GM’s profits from those parts still come back to America and are generally spent here.
In some respects globalization has saved GM. It has allowed them to make parts cheaper and allowed them to compete. The flip side to that is that you’ve lost a huge chunk of the middle class. Most of those factory workers are not getting high paid jobs and adding to the tax base again. They are working at Walmarts and Home Depot. They are not able to send their kids to college or afford to buy a new car. In short, every one of those guys that are out of a job hurts our economy. There are not enough high paying jobs out there and service sector jobs don’t pay enough to support a family.
Pandora box has been opened and cannot be closed. But there are a lot of things that could be done to keep high paying jobs here. We can’t just let our tax base be shipped overseas. I try to buy American as much as I can. I think the stuff at Walmart is junk. I’d rather spend a few more bucks and get something that will last for awhile. Just my opinion.
I have to disagree with you on this point:
“The cost for a GM only manufactured product is the extra cost of the extremely expensive unionized labor. If the union allowed GM to fully automate factories like the automobile factories in Japan (you would not even believe it) then GM would be just fine. If the union allowed GM to decide what and where to manufacture and how to manufacture for the best price and quality then GM would be fine. You and I both know that GM does not have this freedom. Even though GM would be much stronger and the workers would have better job conditions and security (even if there were far fewer core workers).”
It might have been like that in the 80’s but its not like that anymore. There are all kinds of myths out there on how much money union guys make. They can make around $55,000 a year after 20-25 years of service. They can make a lot more than that if they soak up all the overtime. But of course that’s time away from your family. Last I checked they have the same health care plan as everyone else. The new UAW contract has those same workers making $15.00 an hour. It’s hard to raise a family on that. As far as the where to manufacture issue is concerned. I don’t think it’s a problem. They manufacture parts all over the world. And GM factories are some of the most high tech factories in the world. GM’s profits from those parts still come back to America and are generally spent here.
In some respects globalization has saved GM. It has allowed them to make parts cheaper and allowed them to compete. The flip side to that is that you’ve lost a huge chunk of the middle class. Most of those factory workers are not getting high paid jobs and adding to the tax base again. They are working at Walmarts and Home Depot. They are not able to send their kids to college or afford to buy a new car. In short, every one of those guys that are out of a job hurts our economy. There are not enough high paying jobs out there and service sector jobs don’t pay enough to support a family.
Pandora box has been opened and cannot be closed. But there are a lot of things that could be done to keep high paying jobs here. We can’t just let our tax base be shipped overseas. I try to buy American as much as I can. I think the stuff at Walmart is junk. I’d rather spend a few more bucks and get something that will last for awhile. Just my opinion.
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